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NLONG
Member



Joined: 2006/8/17
Posts: 111
Middlebury, Indiana

 Are we as Christians allowed to rebuke our leaders?

Hope this is a better title and If I had a wrong Spirit I sincerely appologize!

I understand that we are not to curse our leaders, this is overwhelmingly scriptural. I do take issue to the fact that once someone turns into a leader and they profess to be a Christian that they are untouchable to reproof and rebuke!

If we are unable, then John the Baptist should not have been so well spoken of by our LORD. There should have been some rebuke or comment that he died in vain. But he rebuked the king and was jailed and killed for it. Just one of a long line of men in the bible that rebuked the leader including Elijah and Elisha.

How about if the leader is a murderer or adulterous or liar or whatever else that is sinful? Are we not permitted to say anything at all? Or how about if they are a Christian in name only?

Does James 5:19-20 apply? "My brothers, if one of you should wander from the truth and someone should bring him back, remember this: Whoever turns a sinner from the error of his way will save him from death and cover over a multitude of sins." Or the other scriptures on accountability?

Now in this forum I realize I wasn't rebuking a person to their face. I'd accept the chance. Was I speaking evil? Or speaking truth? My intent wasn't slander (which is speaking falsely) or gossip.

Like to hear how we balance not speaking ill of our leaders and reproof.


_________________
Neil Long

 2007/6/7 12:41Profile









 Re: Are we as Christians allowed to rebuke our leaders?

NLONG, I'm glad you've come back to deal with this. You were 'sounding' rough on the person you were posting that question to and I've prayed that I wasn't sounding rough too.

Electronic communicating is the hardest way on earth to communicate I believe. At least for me it is. I do have a writing-expressive problem and when I have to write an important letter to someone, I have to read it a 100 times it seems, to see if it's reflecting my heart. Rough stuff for me - honestly. No one can hear your tone of voice or inflections etc., etc.. For me it's the hardest way on earth to communicate. When I just want to give a quick opinion, it sounds like it's being "rough", like on the thread about "Judgment and Satan" about when Satan will be bound. Being on the fly, as it were, I looked at it later and said ... Hey, how could that sound ?
I made the comments I did on this last issue that you've brought back up now and didn't even think that I may have hurt a very dear brother - because that wasn't in my mind at all. Just that I don't want to see anyone else 'fearful' when looking at current events in light of Prophecy ... he is not fearful of anything at all. It doesn't appear to me at all.
The man has PEACE. So the "don't fear" wasn't even directed at him, but at the issue at hand at the time.

I'm sure he'd forgive either of us. But we both maybe need to keep trying harder and harder to learn how to express ourselves in writing.

I only thought of one other instance of the other side of the coin in this topic.

I hold to obeying the laws of the land and all that was posted about respect too ... but as you mentioned John the Baptist, I also remember Jesus' Words to Herod.

Luk 13:31 The same day there came certain of the Pharisees, saying unto him, Get thee out, and depart hence: for Herod will kill thee.
Luk 13:32 And he said unto them, Go ye, and tell that fox, Behold, I cast out devils, and I do cures today and tomorrow, and the third day I shall be perfected.


Yes, to have or learn 'the balance' would be good.
I'll just watch and learn from this thread to see what helps us all in this matter.


Forgiveness is a good thing too.
Peace between us first is also good.

Thank you NLONG.

 2007/6/7 13:15









 Re:

In the military the first thing you learn is to obey your commanding office unquestioningly. As soon as you step off the bus a DI is in your face and shouting at you at full volume, and you're convinced if you even blink wrong... he's gonna kill you.

The reason they do this is because on the battlefield there isnt time for questions. If you dont obey orders immediately you could cause the death of your buddies and yourself, and possibly innocent civilians.

Military leaders do not serve their men... their men serve them.

However... this is not how the church is to be run. Following leaders unquestioningly leads to deception and abuse. It's not good for the followers, and it's not good for the leaders.

Paul commended the Bereans because they studied the scriptures to see if what they were being taught was in line with scripture. The implication is that when the Bereans came across a teaching, or a teacher who was out of line... they rejected them.

Paul said to "mark and avoid" those who teach false doctrines. Say you've belonged to a church for a few years, but all of a sudden the pastor's teachings swerve off course... what do you do? First thing is you go to him directly. But if he refuses to listen, Paul says "mark and avoid" him. Not follow him.

I've been in churches where some of the older men were more spiritually mature and scripturally knowledgable than the pastor... I think thats great!

I get challenged in our own house church. Sometimes I'm right, but sometimes I'm not... and I learn from it. And there are some folks in our house church network that I consider to be way beyond me in spiritual maturity. What that does is it keeps me in check. Makes me really study hard when it's my turn to teach.

It's called checks and balances.

Church is not a dictatorship. Nor is it a democracy.

Krispy

 2007/6/7 13:54









 Re: Are we as Christians allowed to rebuke our leaders?

Mmmm Quite a difficult one! Really, the whole issue of our reaction to authority, within and outside the Church, is relevant to this thread.

Nearly midnight so will try and come back on it tomorrow some time. It is an important subject I think.

1Tim 5:1 for starters?

Jeannette

 2007/6/7 18:55
eldalon
Member



Joined: 2007/1/22
Posts: 1
Quincy, IL

 Re: Are we as Christians allowed to rebuke our leaders?

Hello NLONG,

I certainly say a resounding YES!!!!

2 Timothy 4:2-5 tells us to do just this.

BUT... first and foremost, we must be absolutely certain that the mote has been completely removed from our eyes (Matthew 7:1-5). By doing this, we also conform to John 7:24.

With all the false doctrine and apostasy going on in virtually every church in America... it is a good idea to start seeing who will come out and stand against the ones who cling to the 4 major pillars of apostate Christianity:

1. Unconditional eternal security (Once saved always saved).

2. Tithing

3. The pre-tribulation rapture of the church

4. Israel still being God's chosen people( having a separate covenant with The Father outside of the acceptance of the death, burial and resurrection of The Lord Jesus Christ)

The Scriptures tell of a different truth than the fairy tales of the modern "church".

By the way... since when did going to "church" consist of habitating a building as opposed to gathering with like-minded believers and just talking about Jesus and witnessing to one another? As I remember, this is what that first church did... you know, The Apostles.

Anyhow, enough for now.

May The Lord Jesus Christ bless and preserve you all...

Eldalon


_________________
Duane Linn

 2007/6/7 19:16Profile









 Re:

Ah oh, this went off NLONG's topic question ... but that's O.K.. It sure brought out some interesting things.

What NLONG was referring to, is a former thread discussing "leaders of a nation". Like Presidents and all like that.

We're trying to get the balance of that, out of what he posted in his opening post above.

:-)

 2007/6/7 19:44









 Re: The Balance.

NLONG, Knowing 'this' man's words and seeing/hearing him speak via tapes,books, etc. for many years, may I submit to you what I personally feel is The Balance for any Christian.

Forgive the length of url.

http://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?mode=viewtopic&topic_id=16110&forum=40&start=20&viewmode=flat&order=1

 2007/6/8 13:26
deltadom
Member



Joined: 2005/1/6
Posts: 1804
Hemel Hempstead

 Re:

Paul Rebuke Peter

Galatians 2:11-21
11 But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed. 12 For before that certain came from James, he did eat with the Gentiles: but when they were come, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing them which were of the circumcision. 13 And the other Jews dissembled likewise with him; insomuch that Barnabas also was carried away with their dissimulation. 14 But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews? 15 We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles, 16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. 17 But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid. 18 For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor. 19 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God. 20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. 21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

1Ti 5:17 - Show Context
Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honour, especially they who labour in the word and doctrine.

And to honour your leaders
this is a fantastic sermon by Carter Conlon
[url=http://www.timeforrenewal.com/wmedia/040118-1_CC.asx]Carter Conlon on Spiritual Authority[/url]


_________________
Dominic Shiells

 2007/6/8 13:58Profile









 Re:

Quote:
it is a good idea to start seeing who will come out and stand against the ones who cling to the 4 major pillars of apostate Christianity:



Wow... thats the first time I've ever heard of the "4 pillars of Apostate Churches" being those things! Usually apostacy is seen as just the opposite.

So... you believe someone can be saved and lose their salvation.

I dont believe in tithing, but dont see it as an apostacy.

Pre-trib is up for debate, always has been. Not something I would consider apostacy.

And you believe in replacement theology.

So basically you're saying that anyone who doesnt agree with [b]YOU[/b] is apostate.

I think you're in for a surprise when you get to heaven and all those Independent Fundamental Baptists are in line in front of you.

Krispy

 2007/6/8 14:19
ravenmolehil
Member



Joined: 2006/11/10
Posts: 279
North Carolina, US

 Re:

Quote:
eldalon wrote:
May The Lord Jesus Christ bless and preserve you all..



Not trying to evoke anger:
But from the first part of your thread it doesn't sound like he can....

That is a strong set of pillars, I hope we can carry this over civilly to a whole new thread
______

I will now prophecy:
(This thread will soon be locked, just as the Hillary one)

 2007/6/8 14:47Profile





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