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JaySaved
Member



Joined: 2005/7/11
Posts: 1131
Kentucky

 Re:

Quote:
I'm all for people following their convictions, but when it becomes a thing where they look down their noses at people who may not share their convictions... thats sin



Amen.

 2007/6/7 14:47Profile









 Re:

I liked that quote too Jay. I just got off this stupid computer and was reading the 1Corth 10 verses I was trying to post in my last post. It starts with verse 23.

Krispy, a tunic's just a long shirt.

I wondered what other people wear swimming too.

I wear shorts and a something like a thick t-shirt ... but here we go again ... it ain't cuz I'm holier than thou's stuff. Just a personal thing. I think all of my friends have found modest bathing suits somewhere.

Having been in the Military like you Krispy, though not a jarhead, I just wore what I was told to. Reckon I still do, sorta.

Didn't sign back on for this anyways. Ha. But it caught my eye again.

Thanks Krispy and all.

 2007/6/7 14:58
tjservant
Member



Joined: 2006/8/25
Posts: 1658
Indiana USA

 Re: Women: to wear or not to wear pants?

Wow, what a terrific thread. I have really had my eyes opened to some things I had not considered.

I think Robert hit on something that will always be hard to deal with. What causes one to stumble may not even be noticed by another.

I remember having to read The Razor’s Edge by W. Somerset Maugham back in school. While riding in the back seat of a car, a lady is set aflame so to speak by watching the muscle movement in the hand and arm of the man in the front seat.

Should we also wear long sleeves and gloves?

Of course I’m not serious, but I have realized that what I don’t consider a big deal may very well be a huge stumbling block to another.


_________________
TJ

 2007/6/7 15:06Profile
NLONG
Member



Joined: 2006/8/17
Posts: 111
Middlebury, Indiana

 Re: Women: to wear or not to wear pants?

Well, I'm not sure I'll say much that hasn't been said already. But I'll give it a whirl.

As you may know from past threads, that my family and I also home church. All of the ladies both wear dresses and cover their heads. This is not because of rules and regulations, but biblical convictions.

Now, we are a very diverse group. Many families come from very conservative churches: Old order Amish, old order Mennonite, Beachy Amish, Conservative Mennonite. These women from their testimonies are very modest and feel there's no need to change. Half of us come from more mainstream churches: Missionary and Nazarene. My wife and I were punk (or gothic, today) for quite some time. One sister that came from a Nazarene church was a high-school cheerleader. I would say, from their testimony, the change is based on biblical modesty, gender distinction (Deut.), separation from the world, and a lack of desire to attract men's eyes. As an aside, none of the women wear makeup or jewelry. I would be surprised if any would ever dye their hair. Again they would say this is based on biblical conviction. They would also say that, in the garden, God covered Adam and Eve's nakedness. Of course, how much that was we don't know. I'm sure it was more than their genitals.

I'll speak of my family now. It seems the leading of the LORD in our lives, toward the world, is basically disconnectedness. On issues of dress, my wife began to understand what men will lust after--flesh, hair and form. She started to understand that other adornments serve to lure or draw men's eyes to the areas that men will lust after. Of course, this wasn't news to me, I am a liberated porn addict--Praise and glory to our GOD! Women have been conditioned in our culture that beauty is everything--the more revealing the better. Men have been conditioned that if it's beautiful it's sexually gratifying, therefore lust after and even pursue it.

Women will say, if he's lusting it's his problem. It's a stumbling block issue. It's just as wrong to lust as it is to be the lure, the object of lust. Please note, I said lure, whether conscious or unconscious, if your baiting the hook there's a measure of guilt. In Matthew it says that if a man lusts after a woman even in his heart he's committed adultery with her. In 1 Cor., Ephesians, Galatians and Revelation it says that adulterer's will not inherit God's kingdom and be partakers in Hell. How much more is she a partaker who allows the man to stumble because of her. Lk 17:1-2 "Then said he unto the disciples, It is impossible but that offences will come: but woe unto him, through whom they come! It were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he cast into the sea, than that he should offend one of these little ones." Romans 14:13 "Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother's way."

I've unfortunately had plenty of opportunity to lust after women. All by my own choice of course. Porn makes it real easy to lust. However, I've also had plenty of opportunity from women who unwittingly lured my eyes. Probably these women would have been offended if I would have told them my secret sin. I'm sure they wouldn't have desired to be the cause of that reaction.

Sisters, I do hope that this post hasn't offended you. It's just my experience and that from one man. However, ask yourselves--Are there hidden or unconscious motives for your dress? Is there some thrill of appealing the eyes of men? Do you like to be "noticed"? Please, be aware if you are causing a man to stumble.

KRISPY--don't know if any of my rambling has helped. Hope at least it exposes you to another point of view. GOD BLESS!


_________________
Neil Long

 2007/6/7 15:15Profile
ccchhhrrriiisss
Member



Joined: 2003/11/23
Posts: 4501


 Re:

Hello...

As a young man (recently married), I might interject that loose fitting pants might actually be MORE modest than certain types of dresses.

I have been to churches where the women were treated with contempt because of the specific "moral" standards set by the local church. As a teen, I decided to become a "voting" junior member of our local church. During the same meeting with Church elders, a lady was openly questioned about an incident in which she wore jeans a few years prior. She couldn't even remember the incident. This woman was known in the congregation for her wonderful love for Jesus. Ironically, she was rejected because of those pants -- and I became a junior member even before I was truly saved (and was still quite the agnostic).

At what point should a congregation create specific rules for dress? The Bible is unclear in this aspect. There are many New Covenant verses pertaining to modesty -- but none including specifics. Why? Perhaps that matter is best left between the individual and her relationship with God. I don't care if you wear a Shi'ite Muslim type of veiled covering from head to foot -- there will always be someone who doesn't feel that your outfit is perfectly modest.

The problem with modesty is that no two people can typically agree on a "set of rules." One individual might believe that their clothing is modest -- while another individual is already rolling his/her eyes at the outfit. Of course, there are definite breaches to common understandings of modesty. Some practices are almost universally agreed upon concerning certain practice such as tight jeans and pants or short skirts/dresses/shorts. But the specifics concerning whether or not a dress is "too short" because it exposes someone's ankle can be debated.

I feel the liberty to wear cargo shorts. In the hot south Texas sun, the temperature can reach excruciating levels with stifling humidity. The shorts allow me to walk outdoors in relative comfort. I feel the liberty to wear them to school, the grocery store -- and even work (on occassion). I don't feel that it is a sin for me to wear them -- but I would never wear them as an purposed obstacle to others. Herein lies a problem: Some believers claim that they are an "obstacle" or a "stumbling block" when in reality they are merely a particular preference.

My newlywed wife was a public school teacher. My wife is completely devout in her faith and relationship with Christ. She is a very modest individual with a background in Spanish holiness churches (filled with rules and regulations concerning hair, dress, etc...). Yet my wife does not feel any guilt nor conviction for wearing nice, loose fitting pants to work. She is now a college professor. She more than meets the requirements for dress, and is often commended for her attire. Still, she has encountered believers who would chide her for her dress while also questioning her relationship with God. I have literally encountered women that rolled their eyes and stared at her pants while my wife shared her testimony.

Personally, I would not attend a church that held such specific rules and regulations for attire. It is good and necessary for a Church to call for Biblical modesty. However, since the Word is not specific, neither should our rules for involvement contain specific peculiarities for dress. It is easy to take the church out of the world -- but it is much more difficult to take the world out of the church.

:-)


_________________
Christopher

 2007/6/7 16:41Profile









 Re:

Quote:
but I would never wear them as an purposed obstacle to others. Herein lies a problem: Some believers claim that they are an "obstacle" or a "stumbling block" when in reality they are merely a particular preference.



This is very good stuff here... this is very key to this issue.

As for obstacles or stumbling blocks, Christians who are caught up in rules tend to not understand what obstacles and stumbling blocks are... they think it means it's something they dont like. Preferences.

Lima beans are a obstacle and a stumbling block to me, if I use their logic.

Quote:
Personally, I would not attend a church that held such specific rules and regulations for attire. It is good and necessary for a Church to call for Biblical modesty. However, since the Word is not specific, neither should our rules for involvement contain specific peculiarities for dress. It is easy to take the church out of the world -- but it is much more difficult to take the world out of the church.



While trying not to judge these brothers who i mentioned earlier that were gawking at me... I have to wonder... without judgeing them, of course... are they so seperated from the world that they are not reaching anyone in the world? I dont know any of them, so I cant judge that, but it does make me wonder. I know because of my laid back ways, I reach a lot of people that others cant. I'm perfectly at ease going to a BBQ festival where the beer is flowing... and rubbing elbows with the heathen. Many of these folks I know would never consider going to something like that.

Of course, I am referring to legalists... not the people who have responded to this thread. I have extreme respect for people who have strong convictions on issues like this... and their heart is pure in the matter.

Krispy

 2007/6/7 16:59
JennRich
Member



Joined: 2006/7/17
Posts: 140
Alabama

 Re:

I was wondering if any of y'all are familiar with the Duggar family (16 children) in Arkansas. I've watched several programs about them on TLC (and Discovery Health) and I just love them!! Their testimony and their love for God are so obvious.

Anyway, the mother and girls have very long hair, and wear dresses/skirts almost all the time . . . when the girls do things like play ball with their brothers, or go horseback riding, they wear jeans or pants under their dresses. They wear minimal jewelry and almost no makeup (that I can tell). Anyway, whenever I see a program about them, I realize how sweet and fresh the girls seem . . . the fashions/makeup/hairstyles that most American girls wear are garish in comparison. And it makes me wish our culture went back to simplicity of style, and clear-cut gender distinctions that it used to have.

By the way, the Duggars are Southern Baptist.


_________________
Jennifer Richardson

 2007/6/7 16:59Profile
Tears_of_joy
Member



Joined: 2003/10/30
Posts: 1554


 Re:

Quote:
I was wondering if any of y'all are familiar with the Duggar family (16 children) in Arkansas. I've watched several programs about them on TLC (and Discovery Health) and I just love them!! Their testimony and their love for God are so obvious.


JennRich, did you read this wonderful [url=http://moriefamily.com/03%20Testimony.htm]Testimony[/url]? It is a blessing to read the testimony of this family.

 2007/6/7 17:10Profile









 Re:

Quote:

KrispyKrittr wrote:

While trying not to judge these brothers who i mentioned earlier that were gawking at me... I have to wonder... without judgeing them, of course... are they so seperated from the world that they are not reaching anyone in the world? I dont know any of them, so I cant judge that, but it does make me wonder. I know because of my laid back ways, I reach a lot of people that others cant. I'm perfectly at ease going to a BBQ festival where the beer is flowing... and rubbing elbows with the heathen. Many of these folks I know would never consider going to something like that.

Of course, I am referring to legalists... not the people who have responded to this thread. I have extreme respect for people who have strong convictions on issues like this... and their heart is pure in the matter.

Krispy



Just for the record, I do know of independent Baptists who have these standards who have a great heart for evangelism. Just recently over a hundred Independent Baptists gathered together to street preach at a large beer festival in Memphis, TN. I don't know what the people are like in the church you visited, Krispy, but I wanted to mention that I know conservative Independent Baptists who are some of the most evangelistic people I know. :-)

But I have seen a tendency for conservative groups to become so wrapped up in themselves and 'their' standards that they shut off the world and even other believers. It's really sad. :-(

 2007/6/7 17:17









 Re:

Quote:

JennRich wrote:
I was wondering if any of y'all are familiar with the Duggar family (16 children) in Arkansas. I've watched several programs about them on TLC (and Discovery Health) and I just love them!! Their testimony and their love for God are so obvious.

Anyway, the mother and girls have very long hair, and wear dresses/skirts almost all the time . . . when the girls do things like play ball with their brothers, or go horseback riding, they wear jeans or pants under their dresses. They wear minimal jewelry and almost no makeup (that I can tell). Anyway, whenever I see a program about them, I realize how sweet and fresh the girls seem . . . the fashions/makeup/hairstyles that most American girls wear are garish in comparison. And it makes me wish our culture went back to simplicity of style, and clear-cut gender distinctions that it used to have.

By the way, the Duggars are Southern Baptist.



I know them! They are a precious family. Their love for Christ shines from their countenances. Here is their family website: http://www.duggarfamily.com/

 2007/6/7 17:26





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