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 Re: I believe in MODEST dress .....

Krispy, your post reply to me put Holy Spirit tears in my eyes.

Do you know how hard it is to get "volunteers" to come out and help ?

I founded a Volunteer Org and all the Churches in town were gun-hoe about it - till the time came to "mow, rake leafs, shovel snow for the elderly in our town". I had to mostly work alone friend.

That you woke your boys up to help too, is such a testimony of what you're teaching them about getting out there "and DOING SOMETHING" for others.

You 'knew' there would be no woman there.

Your story breaks the heart.

To quote Zac Poonen again, if I may.

Quote:
7. Freedom from hypocrisy
The Bride has more spiritual content inwardly than others can see in her externally. Her hidden life is better than the opinion that others have of her external life. This is the exact opposite of the `spiritual adulteress' or the `Harlot,' whose so-called spirituality is only meant for receiving the honour of men. What she has is actually `religiosity' and not true spirituality. The bride watches her inner thoughts, motives and attitudes far more than her external words and actions. She longs for God's approval over her inner life and cares nothing at all for man's approval of her external life. By this test, each of us can know whether we are part of the Bride or of the Harlot.



Who were the only ones that Jesus & Paul get rough with while here in the flesh.
Woman should dress in a way, to not cause men to look at them. You know what I mean Krispy.

I respect other's dress codes. Mine are thought to be strick ... but I'm more afraid of 'judging others' when it comes to what they're wearing.
Pastors should preach on modest apparel, but we all should not feel that we can see a person's heart by what they have on. And also give each other time to grow in our/their God-Given convictions.

God Bless all here.
In His Love.

 2007/6/7 11:58









 Re: Women: to wear or not to wear pants?

Hi Krispy and all

We call them trousers in the UK, "pants" are male or female [i]underwear[/i]; but I get what you mean!

Just to point out the obvious fact that men's and women's "pants" are usually different - the shape and the kind of zip for example. I think the ones I wear look feminine - no man would wear them, that's for sure!

As for modesty, I think they are far more modest than a skirt, for jobs like nursing and physoiotherapy, or for activities like aerobics classes, or mountain climbing! Certainly more modest than mini skirts!

As someone said, the Biblical principle is against immodesty and transvestitism, not what particular garment one shouid or should not wear.

Personally my preference for (reasonably loose) "pants" is more because they are comfortable, and it's much quicker to dress in them rather than wearing tights and a skirt!

In Aftrica I used to wear mostly skirts because it was too hot for anything except the loosest, most airy garment possible. Except sometimes in the evenings, where mosquitoes can get at your legs more easily in skirts!

Think I mentioned the funny thing that in the local language my sirname (Parry) sounds like the local word for "pants", "mpari" (= underwear or otherwise). Some people really thought my name was "Miss Knickers" :lol:

Modesty decency, and not looking like the opposite sex, are the important things in dress.

Blessings

Jeannette

 2007/6/7 11:59









 Re:

Quote:

GrannieAnnie wrote:
Krispy, your post reply to me put Holy Spirit tears in my eyes.

Do you know how hard it is to get "volunteers" to come out and help ?

I founded a Volunteer Org and all the Churches in town were gun-hoe about it - till the time came to "mow, rake leafs, shovel snow for the elderly in our town". I had to mostly work alone friend.

That you woke your boys up to help too, is such a testimony of what you're teaching them about getting out there "and DOING SOMETHING" for others.

You 'knew' there would be no woman there.

Your story breaks the heart.

To quote Zac Poonen again, if I may.

Quote:
7. Freedom from hypocrisy
The Bride has more spiritual content inwardly than others can see in her externally. Her hidden life is better than the opinion that others have of her external life. This is the exact opposite of the `spiritual adulteress' or the `Harlot,' whose so-called spirituality is only meant for receiving the honour of men. What she has is actually `religiosity' and not true spirituality. The bride watches her inner thoughts, motives and attitudes far more than her external words and actions. She longs for God's approval over her inner life and cares nothing at all for man's approval of her external life. By this test, each of us can know whether we are part of the Bride or of the Harlot.



Who were the only ones that Jesus & Paul get rough with while here in the flesh.
Woman should dress in a way, to not cause men to look at them. You know what I mean Krispy.

I respect other's dress codes. Mine are thought to be strick ... but I'm more afraid of 'judging others' when it comes to what they're wearing.
Pastors should preach on modest apparel, but we all should not feel that we can see a person's heart by what they have on. And also give each other time to grow in our/their God-Given convictions.

God Bless all here.
In His Love.

Love the Zac Poonen quote!

Yes, it's what's in the heart that counts.

Even my mother who worked in the local steelworks during WWII, becaue the men were mostly off to war, had to wear dungarees (like the traditional idea of the hillbilly) [i]for modesty[/i], as they had to do a lot of bending and stretching, for example when putting the cables on the steel sheets for the crane to pick them up.

She met my Dad there, and they were married less than a year later - rather romantic - especially as neither of them (being shy) had ever gone out with anyone else. (Dad's health wasn't good enough to go to war, and the steelworks was vital to the war effort anyway)

Jeannette

 2007/6/7 12:09
HopePurifies
Member



Joined: 2007/4/12
Posts: 181
Georgia, USA

 Re: Women: to wear or not to wear pants?

I decided to not wear pants most of the time for modesty reasons. However, I still wear pants when I do martial arts. I tried to do a high kick in a really loo
se skirt, and it didn't turn out to be as loose as I thought it was. *kabam* on the floor. haha. But dude, every time I go out some man approaches me so I figure I need to be able to defend myself. I do wear skirts biking and skating or working. There are several skirts that I've seen designed for girls who like horseback riding. But in everything else I wear long skirts. Much below my knee at least.
But I'm totally cool with chicks who wear pants regularly. It's a matter of the heart. Nowadays it is just so normal to wear pants. Loose fitting pants, capris, and pantsuits can be very modest. But in my very humble opinion, there is nothing more modest and feminine than a long skirt. But some women don't find them as comfortable or practical as I do. And I can see that...
I do have a habit of gawking at both men and women who wear tight clothes though. I'd be really sad if that offended someone (I gawk at a lot of things... lol). I mean, I personally think its immodest. I wouldn't think that someone who did it was a heathen though. But if I was close with them I'd probably ask them if they ever considered whether their clothes were modest or not.
As to where it comes from, basically tradition. I mean women didn't start wearing pants until well, I don't know but pretty recently. You look at a bathroom sign and the woman has a skirt on and the man has pants. When women domineer their husband people even now say "she wears the pants in the family".
So... just in case some ladies are on here that love long skirts, there is this really neat site: hannahlise.com. I've ordered a ton from them. They're great.

Edit: I wanted to mention that I don't go to a church that does that. All the females wear pants except me.


_________________
Melanie

 2007/6/7 12:39Profile









 Re: my thoughts

This is an interesting thread and I appreciate your heart on the issue, Krispy. Thanks for bringing this topic up. I read your thread this morning and have been mulling over it and pondering what to say. Some of the things I have to say are foundational principles of modesty and I tried not to get into the nitty gritty too much but some things do have to be brought up in a discussion on modesty. I tried to keep my words discreet, if anyone has a problem with what I said or how it was worded please let me know.

I do have the conviction to not wear pants and it is because I don’t want to wear anything that would be defrauding to a brother in the Lord, or even an unbeliever (and as Paul Washer would say, ‘a potential brother in Christ’). What is defrauding? Defrauding is raising expectation or desires in another person that I cannot righteously fulfill at this time. So, how do I as a woman determine what is defrauding to a man? That’s a tough one because a woman’s mind is so different from a man’s mind. But I have listened to my dad and what is a stumbling block to him, I have read books or heard from various sources what is tempting to men. It’s interesting that what may bother one man will not affect another one.

So what is about pants that makes them immodest? Loose pants have been mentioned, but I must say that most of the loose pants that I have seen worn will ultimately become tight as a woman bends over and reveals her feminine curves or other things. Where is the eye drawn when pants are worn on a woman? Have you ever noticed what parts of the body pants tend to emphasize? Please be honest here. Why do guys like to see women in pants? Partial exposure or emphasizing parts of the body can be as tempting if not just as much tempting to men as disclosure.

Girls, where do you want men to look? At your body or face? Our clothing should be such as causes others to focus on our countenances and not on the clothes we are wearing. Do our clothes frame our faces or our bodies?

I will admit that very loose pants with a long tunic could be modest. :) But why not wear a modest dress or skirt? Now that’s a whole other subject about the modesty of skirts, jumpers and dresses.

It is a challenge to dress modestly. It takes more time and energy that just throwing on jeans and a t-shirt. But it’s worth it. I’ve never heard a guy complain about women dressing too modestly in our church, rather I’ve heard appreciation and gratitude that we care enough to dress that way.

I want to please my Lord in how I dress and I cannot in good conscience wear something that would be a stumbling block to someone else. And wearing dresses isn’t that bad. You can do a lot in a dress. There are very few activities that you can’t do in a skirt. I’ve ridden horses, played volleyball, basketball, softball, kickball, tennis, gone hiking, walking, fishing, canoeing, well, I think you all get the point. :) Dresses aren’t as limiting as you might think! To be honest, it’s been so long since I’ve worn pants in public that I would feel partially undressed if I were to wear jeans in public, what a horrifying thought!

This is just where God has me. And I can accept my sisters in the Lord who don’t agree with me on this because our unity in Christ isn’t based on similar convictions but rather on the glorious work that He has done in saving our souls. Christ has done so much for me, surely this is a small sacrifice to make for Him.

Nancy Leigh DeMoss’s teaching on modesty has been a great blessing to me and very helpful. I highly recommend it to anyone interested in this issue of life. You can read the radio transcripts or download the MP3 files off of her website: http://www.reviveourhearts.com/radio/roh/today.php?pid=971 I think the broadcast on modesty was from May 23 to June 10. There are some more resources on this webpage: http://www.reviveourhearts.com/topics/topic.php?topic_name=Modesty%2FSexual%20Purity

Well, I hope ya’ll have heard my heart on this. Please know that in no way do I judge or condemn those who disagree. I have seen a weakness in groups like you encountered, Krispy, to not accept other Christians who may be ‘different’ than they are, and that is wrong and unChristlike. I also disagree with the use of the Deuteronomy passage to defend modesty. I think that is taken out of context when used to condemn women wearing pants. But you all have already pointed out the principle that is found there (women are to dress like women, etc).

One more thing, Ian said that pants are a cultural thing. Well, how far are we to go in fitting in with the culture? If it is the cultural thing to wear a bikini to the beach or some public place does that give a Christian woman the excuse to do so? I would contend that pleasing Christ comes before fitting into the culture.

I do have the blessed privilege of being part of a fellowship where all the women wear modest dresses, it is not a church ordinance but something that comes from hearts desiring to glorify God.

Well, there's a little bit from me. :-)

~Joy

 2007/6/7 13:04









 Re:

Joy... great post, sister. There is a lot to chew on there. Some things in there I hadnt considered.

I know for me, a high testosterone guy, it doesnt take much to catch my eye. It's a constant struggle. Fortunately my wife is a hottie :-) ... that helps... lol

Anyway, I appreciate your heart on this issue.

Quote:
And I can accept my sisters in the Lord who don’t agree with me on this because our unity in Christ isn’t based on similar convictions but rather on the glorious work that He has done in saving our souls.



Amen to this... and I think that is probably the most important part of this, or any conviction we may have. Everything from drinking a beer now and then to music to Bible versions. I think there are different reasons why God lays one conviction on a brothe/sister, and not on another. And who are we to judge that?

Now, my wife is not opposed at all to weaing dresses. She wears sun dresses a lot in the summer for the same reasons someone else brought up concerning the heat and humidity. I know that when we do visit traditional church, like the one we are speaking of, one problem she has wearing a dress is that we have a 2 yr old who thinks she is his personal climbing rock. She is constantly having to adjust her dress everytime he crawls up and down on her. It's rather annoying to her.

And by the way, someone mentioned rock climbing being hard to do in a skirt... my wife enjoys rock climbing with me. I'll ask her if she's willing to try it in a dress sometime... lol. She really likes the repelling part. Her dress could act as a parachute!

All joking aside tho... there has been some great input here. I hope this continues.

I'm listening and taking notes, y'all. Looks like I might have to do a teaching on this in our church once I figure out what God is trying to show me in all this.

Krispy

 2007/6/7 13:31
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
Had anyone ever run into this? Does anyone have this conviction? I'd love to have a discussion about this because I'm curious about where this comes from.



Actually, it just depends on the times you live more than anything. Modesty is very important. How to achieve modesty is a matter of debate and preference. I was raised that make-up was a sin. ;-)

When I was a child I went to summer camp with our Pentecostal churches. They were ultra-holiness. And I mean ultra-holiness. In years past literally everything that could be considered fun was a sin. No kidding here. Softball was a sin so it could not be played at camps. Instruments in churches were considered sin- even a pitch pipe before the days of Finney. It may be astonishing to some to know that there was a time when men were expected to wear a wig to preach? Later wearing a tie was a sin and then not wearing one was a sin.

I could go on for hours on this stuff. They were known here in Missouri as holiness or hell preachers. High heels were sounding brass and tinkling symbols. TV was of the devil (of course). Couples were not allowed to show PDA. Anyone know that phrase? Public Display of Affection. If they wanted to hold hands they had to hold onto a stick between them. But in 1979 I went to this camp and swimming was allowed- just [u]not[/u] co-ed. This was a good thing. A large fence surrounded the pool. None could see in. We as boys still had to swim in full length pants and a t-shirt. Ever go recreational swimming in jeans and a shirt? Been there- done that.

The problem with these radical concepts that were quite silly really is that people cast them off almost completey and we went the other direction. Almost all of the holiness or hell preachers backslid but maybe one. Why? They said they could not live their own standard. Coffee is a sin so the older ladies warmed hot water and put cream and sugar in lest they offend God. Etc. etc. My great great grandma is said that none ever saw above her ankle or her wrist. She was an Methodist street preacher in Cole Camp, MO in the early 1900's. But this is NOT holiness. Holiness is conformity to the person of Jesus Christ.

I mention all these things with tremendous respect for those who held sincerely these convictions. In my time I have seen basketball goals set up in the sanctuary for ball before and after church and men wearing shorts to service. Many times women get their groove on to come to the house of God- especially if it is a youth event. I never understood such things? Men and women sin- but devils [i]tempt[/i] to sin. I think that is a good line.

People have sense enough to know whether they are man or woman if they are [i]dividing the worship[/i] in the house of God. If you dress in ANY way that seeks to attract attention to yourself whether in modesty or not I cannot help but believe it is sin. Will God share the glory in His house? Women tell me there is little more seductive than a [i]sharp dressed man[/i]. A man in a sharp suit. Totally covered- but alluring all the more. Same with a woman. I have heard men say that a woman dressed nice is more enticing than one dressed as a street walker. I believe he is right. Cheap is cheap is cheap is cheap.

So, for my 2 cents, I would say for all of us that we should never dress in a way that seeks to entice. This is not a statement about what you are wearing- but of your intentions in wearing it.




_________________
Robert Wurtz II

 2007/6/7 13:35Profile









 Re:

Wow, all good posts here.
Joy, I doubt you could offend if you tried.
I enjoyed every one of these posts.

Whenever I wear slacks or capris I always where tunics. I won't even tuck my shirt into a skirt. All being loose fitted.
This topic came up before, so forgive me if I repeat myself ... but I think women should wear cloths that make it look so that only their husbands know if they're fat or not. I love long dresses and skirts, but I tend to dress closest to whatever Church I'm visiting or who I'm with. Not to cause anyone to feel uncomfortable when with them.
Paul said, I become all things to all men. I can live without the make-up and slacks and necklace, if it offends friends that I want to visit at their Church, etc.
I guess that's sort of a 1Corth 10 thing - the last how many verses there.
I didn't think of wearing slacks to Church, but at this Church, they do - so now I do sometimes too because at a mid-week service, I don't want the other sisters to think I'm holier then them. I have mostly to the ankle dresses, but these folks don't wear them - so I've gone through me closet to find the tea length or just below the knee ones that people have given me.
Ha - cloths for every occasion, just to not offend or make anyone feel uncomfortable.

WWII was when women needed to wear pants because in certain jobs, as Jeanette brought up, because no matter how long your skirt was/is also, some men just don't have pure minds and some types of work in skirts, like climbing ladders or tree pruning etc. is embarrassing if nothing else.

I guess it all boils down again to not making anyone stumble or feel lesser than ourselves and both at the same time.

Blessings!

 2007/6/7 14:03









 Re:

Quote:
We as boys still had to swim in full length pants and a t-shirt. Ever go recreational swimming in jeans and a shirt? Been there- done that.



You're lucky no one drowned! Try full uniform with a 50 pound pack on your back... been there, done that.

When I was a kid we'd bail hay all afternoon, then jump buck-naked into the creek. Not coed, but all us farm boys.

Quote:
I mention all these things with tremendous respect for those who held sincerely these convictions.



Amen here... I'm not looking to change my convictions, unless the Holy Spirit prompts me to. Then I only want to be obedient. But I think when we gain understand into [i]why[/i] some people have these convictions it leads to respect between us. This is a very important point you make here.

Quote:
If you dress in ANY way that seeks to attract attention to yourself whether in modesty or not I cannot help but believe it is sin. Will God share the glory in His house? Women tell me there is little more seductive than a sharp dressed man. A man in a sharp suit. Totally covered- but alluring all the more. Same with a woman. I have heard men say that a woman dressed nice is more enticing than one dressed as a street walker. I believe he is right. Cheap is cheap is cheap is cheap.



I've been in "dresses only" churches where the women dressed in extravegant dresses... I mean you would have thought it was Oscar night or something. Not immodest, but extremely showy. I've also seen some preachers who dress to the hilt... and then they have some great fall. I find it interesing, ever watch a Mafia movie? What are those killers wearing? Suits and ties.

They look like preachers...

Quote:
So, for my 2 cents, I would say for all of us that we should never dress in a way that seeks to entice. This is not a statement about what you are wearing- but of your intentions in wearing it.



Now thats wisdom! Amen.

Krispy

 2007/6/7 14:29









 Re:

Quote:
Whenever I wear slacks or capris I always where tunics. I won't even tuck my shirt into a skirt. All being loose fitted.



Being a guy, and not having ever watched Queer Eye for the Straight Guy... I have to ask:

Whats a tunic?

Krispy

 2007/6/7 14:30





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