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ginnyrose
Member



Joined: 2004/7/7
Posts: 7463
Mississippi

 Re:

Everette,

I did just a tiny bit of more research on Sadhu Sundar Singh and what I found seemed to line up with your original post. I am surprised - never heard this idea floated by anyone before.

From the search I have done and what my memory reminds me of is that Singh travelled extensively during his lifetime, including the USA. When he was here in the states, were there any preachers who sensed anything amiss and warned people about him? Reckon, I am a tad bit surprised that it has only been in recent years we are reading anything negative about him.

Everette, I do not want to disprove what you have said; it is just that this info has taken me completely by surprise because I thought he was a wonderful Christian.

Blessings,
ginnyrose


_________________
Sandra Miller

 2007/6/11 0:47Profile
Everett
Member



Joined: 2007/5/3
Posts: 77
West Bloomfield, MI

 Re:

Here's some information to answer your question (although its not the best) concerning when he visited America (the west) if there were any pastors who sensed something wrong about him.

http://www.mergingcurrents.com/sss.php

"...He was invited to the West and made a number of tours there in the following years. Western Christianity was also desperate for Asian heroes, and Sundar fit the bill.

But a controversy broke out that was never really resolved, and [b]most likely never will be[/b]. Sundar came under severe attack from critics who suggested that he was a sham, one who fabricated stories to make himself famous. There were some difficult issues raised by these critics, particularly stories about visits to and ministry in Tibet , but the critics were manifestly bent on trouble and not just seeking after truth. The friends of Sundar Singh reacted in his defense, counseling him to ignore his attackers."

Now, i don't know what they were criticizing him about but from this passage it shows that some people in the west had a second thought about him. Some of those people may have been the typical haters and those people with bad motives who always spring up to find something bad about a person's life in which they seek to hurt a persons image and fame instead of seeking the truth.

From the passage below some Evangelical Christians weren't to comfortable with his visions.

"Up to this time, the western world had had to judge the content and the character of Sundar Singh's visions almost entirely from what had been recorded in Streeter and Appasamy. In his tours and other preaching engagements, he had avoided the subject of visions, probably because he recognized that the Evangelical Christians with whom he chiefly associated would be unwilling to take them seriously, and might perhaps even have been hostile, had they known of the nature and character of his visionary experience. To the extent that visions were acceptable in Evangelical circles, they had to conform to the record and terminology of the Bible. This some of the Sadhu's visions perhaps did; but not all. At least it was not permissible for Evangelicals to converse with the spirits of the departed on "the other side," a circumstance which inevitably suggested the error of spiritualism. And there the matter rested for the next four years. Sundar Singh's visions presumably (indeed certainly) continued, though he refrained from speaking of them in public. But in 1926 he broke his silence." (from the article by Eric J. Sharpe called Sadhu Sundar Singh and the new church)

I was much impressed and excited once coming across this legendary figure but because of my growing desire to know more about his life i came across the name Jakob Boehme in one of his (Sadhu) books called "Wisdom of the Sadhu; The teachings of Sadhu Sundar Singh" (which you can read online) and i looked him (Boehme) up and his writings were remarkably similar not identical but similar to that of Sadhu's pertaining to his visions and mystic beliefs. So this and this alone do i have against him because his life was truly exemplary.

I will surely not mark him off of my list but i will try to learn from his life because he went far beyond the boundaries of common western Christianity but i couldn't help to notice the similar relationship his visions have with other mystic's writings like Jakob Boehme and Swendenborg.

BE BLESSED


_________________
Chad Everett Dalton

 2007/6/11 22:39Profile
ginnyrose
Member



Joined: 2004/7/7
Posts: 7463
Mississippi

 Re:

Everette,

Thanks for sharing. I am alarmed at the idea that he may have been communicating with the spirits of the dead. If this is true, he definately is a false prophet. Now a true prophet can have dreams and visions, that I can believe - if they line up with the scriptures, but there again, they must be 100% accurate and come to pass exactly like they prophecied: no room for errors.

Now I will have to more alert about anything that is attributed to him.

Blessings,
ginnyrose


PS; (EDIT) Come to think about it, I do not recall ever hearing Ravi Zacharias mention him and he is an Indian from India....wonder why?


_________________
Sandra Miller

 2007/6/11 23:35Profile
Everett
Member



Joined: 2007/5/3
Posts: 77
West Bloomfield, MI

 Re:

I know it has been a long time since the last post but your question has stuck in my mind and has resurfaced and just surprisingly after searching the internet not thinking about this subject concerning whether Ravi Zacarias spoke of Sadhu Sundar Singh I came across it and here it is:

Quote:
"Dr. Ravi Zacharias grew up in India in the midst of all the major religions of the world. At the age of seventeen, while recovering from an attempt to take his own life because of the meaninglessness of it, someone read to him John 14:6 where Jesus said, I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me. He committed his life to Christ that day and today is one of the world's most renowned Christian apologists.

Quote:
In THE CASE FOR FAITH Lee Strobel asked Ravi, "What about people who live in places where the Gospel isn't routinely discussed or where its dissemination is actually outlawed?" This is how Dr. Zacharias responded:

Quote:
"I have spoken in many Islamic countries, like Syria, which are tough countries to speak in. Virtually every Muslim who's come to know Christ has either come to know Christ, number one, because of the love of Christ expressed through another Christian or because of a vision or a dream or a supernatural intervention.

Quote:
"One of India's greatest converts was a Sikh, Sundar Singh. Sundar Singh came to know Christ through an appearance of Christ in his room in a dream one night and had a tremendous impact on his life, and he became a Christian and so on. So I say that there are ways that God reveals and speaks that are far beyond our own understanding.

Quote:
"Now if God is able to give the word of Christ in various settings within ways which are beyond what you and I can understand, if he can speak through general revelation, speak through the conscience, then we have to accept the fact that He tells us that we are without excuse. Every human being, I understand, will know enough truth so that if they respond to that known truth, God reveals more to them. Does that mean they have to have as much of a volume of truth as anyone in another setting? I do not believe that to be so.""



I really can't come to an absolute conclusion on him concerning the whole mysterious connections he has with Swedenborg and Jakob Boehme that are seen in his visions and his writings, his belief in universalism, his great interest in the spirit world and angels and his many controversial stories just doesn't sit well with me but one thing I do know is that if he were a truth apostle or prophet I wouldn't have started this topic. Only God can judge righteously and I leave this up to him and the last day where everyone's works will be revealed.


_________________
Chad Everett Dalton

 2008/1/18 16:56Profile
ginnyrose
Member



Joined: 2004/7/7
Posts: 7463
Mississippi

 Re:

Everett,

Ravi is right about this thing of how God reveals himself to people who are remote physically from the Gospel. In recent years I have read numerous testimonies of people who came to the LORD in dependant of any human testimony. This happens a lot in Muslims countries at this present time. I personally know an Indian lady who was visited by the LORD Jesus. Her father was an atheist and her mother a snake worshipper - a highly unlikely situation for a child of six to learn about the LORD Jesus.

I experience a sense of shame when I am in the presence of a person like this. She has a quality of spiritually I can only dream about; she shames me with her sense of trust and faith -the like of which I can only aspire to. The difference is [likely] because I have had life too comfortable where I never was so totally destitute that I was TOTALLY DEPENDANT on God. Hey, I am healthy, have a good husband to care for me....

In the meantime, I pray the LORD would teach me to recognize his voice whenever He speaks so I may be obedient to Him in everything. My closeness to the LORD is up to me, this I know. I am never content with this life but do aspire to be always where God wants me and therein I meet an enemy and he is deceptive...so God help me to recognize it wherever I encounter it.

Got on a rabbit trail did I not?

Blessings,
ginnyrose


_________________
Sandra Miller

 2008/1/20 19:21Profile
AllanJ
Member



Joined: 2008/1/24
Posts: 1


 Re: Sadhu Sundar Singh and The New Church

I have been following this discussion (on and off) for a while now and feel that it is time to add my few cents worth.
A trivial point first, but the story about Sadhu Sundar Singh being in a trance for 8 hours is not correct. The incident is mentioned on pp. 68 – 69 of Heiler’s “The Gospel of Sadhu Sundar Singh” but the person who experienced the trance (and held up the boat!) was Devendranath Tagore NOT Sundar Singh! Nevertheless, prolonged trances are not unknown in Christian history; Quaker founder, George Fox, was said to have experienced a trance lasting 14 days (!) at his conversion.
Secondly, the criticism directed toward the Sadhu by many Western clergy was mentioned. No doubt, some of this would have been by certain evangelicals, but that is not surprising. I have seen a Web page (allegedly by evangelicals) arguing that Billy Graham is a servant of the Devil! But the most vigorous criticism of the Sadhu came from some Roman Catholic (mainly Jesuit) priests and liberal Protestants. Some of the former figured that he must be an impostor on the grounds that nobody outside the (Roman Catholic) church could live such a saintly life!
As far as the liberal Protestant clergy were concerned, the Sadhu’s insistence on the Bible as inspired and his belief in miracles (both in the Bible and – though rarely – during the present day) went against their belief in the rationalistic approach of higher biblical criticism. German Protestants, in particular, were especially hostile to Sadhu on these grounds
As far as Sadhu’s beliefs are concerned, he is not always easy to pin down, but I find no evidence that he ever accepted the “Unitarian” Swedenborgian idea that the Trinity is present in Jesus. On the contrary, he explained the Trinity in the (admittedly imperfect) model of the Sun’s light and heat (the light is not the heat and vice versa, but both reveal the Sun) used by some of the Church Fathers. Clearly, Sadhu saw Jesus as one Person of the Trinity, although he did stress that God the Father could never be known except as revealed through the Divine Manhood of Jesus. (Man can never comprehend God in His full essence, but we can relate to Him in so far as He reveals Himself as Man).
In one or two places, Sadhu writes as if the Redeemed in Heaven can act as ‘angels’ but there are also passages where he makes a clear distinction between angels and humans. In one place, for instance, he writes that man can know more of God’s love than angels can, because man is a fallen being in need of redemption, whereas angels have always been in the presence of God and know nothing of sin. Unlike Swedenborg, Sadhu believed in a personal Satan, who was himself a rebellious angel. If Satan was an angel and if it was through him that man fell (as Sadhu also believed) then it stands to reason that angels must have existed prior to the creation of humanity and cannot be simply redeemed human spirits!
Sadhu’s relation with the Swedenborgians is complex. Some of them saw his visions as confirmation of Swedenborg’s but others accused him of being a spiritualist (Sadhu defends himself against this charge – possibly made by Swedenborgians – in his book “The Spiritual World”). One of the criticisms that the Swedenborgains had against him was that his theology remained too evangelical. They argued that if he had really experienced the realm that Swedenborg had, his theology would have become more Swedenborgian! Therefore he must be deluded. (There also seemed a reluctance, in some Swedenborgian quarters, to believe that anyone other than Swedenborg could have had visions of Heaven).
What are we to say then?
Did Sadhu hold some false theological ideas? No doubt!
Do you and I hold some false theological ideas? No doubt! (Let he who is without theological error cast the first stone!)
To be sure, Paul and the other epistle writers stress the importance of sound doctrine, but it is probably an oversimplification to equate “sound doctrine” simply with “correct theology”. Paul was most anxious that his audience held firm to the belief that salvation is by grace through faith in Jesus Christ alone, and not a reward for good works. That seems to have been the core of “sound doctrine”. That, and the style of life flowing from it. “Sound doctrine” was closer to “right living” than to “right theology”.
In a similar vein, Jesus gave us two criteria for distinguishing His true followers;
They are to be known by their fruit, and,
They hear His voice and follow Him.
Jesus did NOT say that His followers would be known by the accuracy of their theology. I bet that Satan knows more theology than anyone on this site, but he is no Christian! On the other hand, the dying thief probably knew next to nothing (he most probably did not even know that Jesus was divine), yet was with the Lord in Paradise that very day!
The fruit of Sadhu’s life is represented in part by his willingness to spread the Gospel at grave risk to his personal safety and the thousands of people who found Christ (and, no doubt, continue to find Him) through his parables and writings. The Layman’s Evangelical Fellowship International is just one indirect fruit of the Sadhu … it was founded by an evangelist who travelled with Sadhu for a time, eventually parting company on the understanding that Sadhu would evangelize the north of India whereas Daniel (the disciple evangelist) would evangelize the south. LEFI continues its work of evangelism in India and beyond.
As for hearing Jesus voice and following Him, that is what Sadhu did from the age of 15. Because of this, his own family tried to kill him and he became an outcast to his own community. He gave his life TO Christ and ended up by giving his life FOR Christ. We don’t know whether he was murdered or died of natural causes on his way to Tibet, but had he not been trying to reach the unreached, he would not have died at that time. When I look at his life and then back at mine, the experience is certainly humbling and leaves little room to doubt the godliness of this man.
Blessings
AlanJ


 2008/1/25 0:52Profile
enid
Member



Joined: 2006/5/22
Posts: 2660
Nottingham, England

 Re:

AllanJ,
Thanks for pointing out who the real person was who was in the trance for 8 hours.

Fact is, I lost the book and have only recently found it.

Still, it says on page 68 in a paragraph above the one you quoted that, '...he reckons that he experiences this gift of God from eight to ten times a month. The ecstacy usually lasts an hour or two'.

If this is not talking about Sundar Singh then please let me know.

The thing is I have never finished the book, so maybe I need to.

God bless.

 2008/1/25 10:18Profile





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