SermonIndex Audio Sermons
Image Map
Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Are Women Totally Forbidden to Teach?

Print Thread (PDF)

Goto page ( Previous Page 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | 13 | 14 | 15 | 16 | 17 | 18 | 19 | 20 | 21 | 22 | 23 | 24 | 25 | 26 | 27 | 28 | 29 | 30 | 31 Next Page )
PosterThread









 Re:

Quote:
WallBuilder said: Obviously this issue [b]can[/b] be controversial in the Body of Christ

Not 'can' be, it is. And it will always be a controversial subject and we'll argue until the cows come home, the only time we all find our place both men and women is when the fear of God is present in the midst of us. (I am speaking of the whole, not the part). There are men and women that do find their roles, you almost have to leave society to do it, because rebellion is both in the midst of us and in the world.

You see, we are eating from one Tree, the tree of life. The world is still eating from the tree of the knowledge of Good and Evil, therefore, we need to stop hanging around that tree, for the results of that tree is death.

Comprehende?

 2007/6/6 10:03









 Re:

Quote:
I used to preach of course, but any authority wasn't mine but the authority of the Word itself, as far as I was concerned.



Paul was addressing authority in the church, and sorry to tell y'all... there is a line and order of authority in the church. This is largely ignored today because most Christians are rebellious... but this is the authority that Paul was referring to. We all know what he meant because he clarified it for us in these passages as well as many others, so lets stop pretending that he meant something else.

Krispy

 2007/6/6 11:02
wallbuilder
Member



Joined: 2007/2/15
Posts: 44


 Re:

How can you call me wallpaper and then say I am not reading your posts? I am reading your posts, and responding to the points you are bringing up, not out of emotion, but out of truth and the validity of both Scripture and church history.

To infer that many of the women I have mentioned are in rebellion is deplorable to me.

Back to the original issue:

Deborah was a prophetess, who, "judged" the nation of Israel. The word Judge means "to govern, or rule". Check it out for yourself in your Hebrew lexicons. Judges 4:4.

Phoebe was a "deacon"-the same greek word diakonos used in I Timothy 3:10 speaking of those who desired to be deacons in the church. The definition for "deacon" in this passage in Romans 16:1 is, "a deacon, one who by virtue of the office assigned to him/her by the church, cares for the poor & has charge of & distributes money". This is a position of leadership/servanthood under the headship of male authority.

Aquila and Priscilla were Paul's "fellow workers" in Acts 16:3-who had a church that met in their house. The church during the N.T. met in people's homes. So this would be a church setting, not a tiny Bible study.

Aquila and Priscilla "explained or expounded" the Scriptures more clearly to Apollos, a man "learned in Scripture" who only knew John's baptism. Acts 18:26-this would be teaching.

The point I am trying to make is that there is room in interpretation for a woman to, yes, have a position of leadership, and yes,even teach, when it's done under male authority.

that's all, I'm done. I didn't want to have to even go there. But for the sake of truth I had to.

God bless y'all

 2007/6/6 12:12Profile









 Re:

God Bless you too. Amen.

The mistake in your sign-on name was not 'intentional'. But it was a psych-slip. (Don't like to say that wacko shrink's name).

When I first saw your first post two days ago or so, I was afraid that a "wall" was going to be "built" between you and us. I pondered that and then being the cognitively-impaired human that I am, it got imprinted.
This may sound like a bunch of brain-science gone whacked - but before the Lord - I've done 'stranger' things to try to keep the peace and have folks not leave in a disagreement over minors. P.S. I hope when you posted above "I'm done." ... you just meant for this point and time ... otherwise ... this here grannie wasted her hopes even posting on this thread. We went around on this over a year ago, so I had no intention to even post on this subject, if it weren't for that fear of that "wall" I was concerned with, of breaking fellowship over this.


Now, you said at the end of this post -
Quote: "... when it's done under male authority."

I think if you read my posts beginning to end (and yes, I got your sign-on nickname twisted, but other than that I read your posts a few times each before I'd post, just so we could make peace; as I've said.) .... you'd see my posts and even that link that crsschk gave stressed this "authority" more than anything.

So this ends up with almost your last 6 words above, putting us on some closer ground after all.

Well, I came on to post Elisabeth Elliot's stuff, then found your post. There's Newsletters that I wish I could download - DRATS - but now I find out I can't even download PDF files. Now I'm bugged. I don't mind that I can't reply to PMs or start threads or see active-x pictures and stuff, but not being able to download PDF files is the last straw that breadks this old lady's back. :-?

Well, I love Elisabeth and Amy Carmichael, so I'm going to have to have someone UN-DO whatever is preventing this downloading stuff.

Well, you take care friend and forgive me again for twisting your nickname.
I wondered earlier why LittleGift was laughing at me. :-(
(Funny LittleGift - I ain't got 4 eyes neither. :)

http://www.elisabethelliot.org/newsletters.html

LOVE !

 2007/6/6 13:11









 Re:

Quote:
Deborah was a prophetess, who, "judged" the nation of Israel. The word Judge means "to govern, or rule". Check it out for yourself in your Hebrew lexicons. Judges 4:4.



Right... but she did not govern or rule in the [b]temple[/b]. She was not over the priests.

Quote:
Phoebe was a "deacon"-the same greek word diakonos used in I Timothy 3:10 speaking of those who desired to be deacons in the church. The definition for "deacon" in this passage in Romans 16:1 is, "a deacon, one who by virtue of the office assigned to him/her by the church, cares for the poor & has charge of & distributes money". This is a position of leadership/servanthood under the headship of male authority.



It is not an authority position. It is a laborer position. Thats like saying the janitor is in charge of the school house. I pack boxes sometimes in a food distribution warehouse ministry... but I'm not in charge. But I'm basically fulfilling to job description of a deacon.

Quote:
Aquila and Priscilla were Paul's "fellow workers" in Acts 16:3-who had a church that met in their house. The church during the N.T. met in people's homes. So this would be a church setting, not a tiny Bible study.



The church met in their home, they were hosting a church, she was not the pastor. THere is nothing to indicate that she was. Yes, she was a fellow worker, but you're making a tremendous leap to say she was a pastor! Dont you see that? You're reading into scripture what you want it to say!

By the way, I'm one of the elders of a network of house churches... I'm very well versed in how the first century church met, believe me. I've had to defend our stance on house churching many a time.

Quote:
Aquila and Priscilla "explained or expounded" the Scriptures more clearly to Apollos, a man "learned in Scripture" who only knew John's baptism. Acts 18:26-this would be teaching.



Thats right, and she did this [b]with her husband[/b]. You're presuming she took a lead role, and there is nothing to indicate this. She helped explain scripture... along side of her husband. Not to mention it apparently was in a setting [b]other[/b] than the church! My wife has done exactly the same thing with me many times. Many times we've sat across the dining room table from a new believer, or someone who just wanted to learn more about scripture... and my wife is very good at verbally explaining things than me. But in a church setting my wife does not teach men.

Quote:
The point I am trying to make is that there is room in interpretation for a woman to, yes, have a position of leadership, and yes,even teach, when it's done under male authority.



...under male authority... yes! But [b]not[/b] in a church setting!! Paul expressly forbid such a thing.

Quote:
that's all, I'm done. I didn't want to have to even go there. But for the sake of truth I had to.



Well, I love ya, but the truth of scripture does not seem to align with your truth. So I guess we need to pick one and stick with it... think I'll pick scripture. No offense, sis... :-)

Krispy

 2007/6/6 13:53
roadsign
Member



Joined: 2005/5/2
Posts: 3777


 Re:

Quote:
physically women are on average smaller and more lightly built than men. At puberty, the higher testosterone levels actually make a boy's muscles stronger, weight for weight, than a girl's Emotionally women also tend to be more vulnerable in some ways. Men tend to be more assertive and decisive Many men are therefore better fitted for leadership roles than most women.


Jeannette, it occurred to me that God often didn't depend on natural “advantages”. He even chose the weak on purpose.

Quote:
(that is no excuse for being domineering!).


True for all of us, really. Sadly, our gender tensions spill out of past abuse of authority. Modern movements like liberation theology which includes feminist hermeneutics seems to be an over-reaction to the social/gender injustices against the poor and against women. Add to the mix our social beliefs that gender equality refers to job opportunities, status, income, hierarchy positions, etc. Put that into the church, and leadership has more to do with status than actual work of making disciples. (I am broad-sweeping here)

I suspect that this gender issue would quickly cease to be a problem if persecution broke out. When the status, income, and social standing of one acclaimed to be a spiritual leader is removed, then only those who are truly called by God, and willing to be put in prison and die will persevere - being enabled by God. … Tested by fire…. That will reveal the truth of one’s calling.

In the meantime, I support an aspect of Krispy’s points. (don’t fall over, Krispy) The fact that thousands of women may have been spiritual leaders cannot be a criteria for me or any women. We are each accountable to God, not statistics.

I have a question: What do we do with the fact that the Bible was written essentially for men, and through the eyes of men and their issues. Ex: Proverbs uses “you” all the way through. He's talking to men, and one CAN’T gender-neutralize a lot of those examples – ex about avoiding the wayward woman. Proverbs 31 switches to the third person – not speaking TO the woman but ABOUT the woman – still speaking to men. You find that even in the epistles. If the Bible was read and studied by men back then, how could women every be in a position to teach – apart from promoting opinions and heresies?

Just think how radical it would have been for Mary to be allowed to sit at the feet of Jesus. That would have been forbidden in that day.

How does that relate to this topic.... I'm not sure? Maybe someone else sees some light.

One thing that cannot be denied is that God is placing men in the forfront of theological formation, establishing doctine, hermeneutical principles, making commentaries, confronting false teachings, etc. Just look at the names of the authors. Praise God for these godly men!


Diane


_________________
Diane

 2007/6/6 16:13Profile









 Re:

Quote:

GrannieAnnie wrote:
God Bless you too. Amen.

The mistake in your sign-on name was not 'intentional'. But it was a psych-slip. (Don't like to say that wacko shrink's name).

When I first saw your first post two days ago or so, I was afraid that a "wall" was going to be "built" between you and us. I pondered that and then being the cognitively-impaired human that I am, it got imprinted.

Wallbuilder - like Nehemiah? Much better than papering over the cracks!
Quote:
This may sound like a bunch of brain-science gone whacked - but before the Lord - I've done 'stranger' things to try to keep the peace and have folks not leave in a disagreement over minors.

Good on you, Sis! I'm not a granny - never got married (nearly, once, but for the grace of God - it would have been a big mistake) or had kids; but I'm plenty old enough to be a granny.

So us two grannies best wade in there and lay about all these ornery critters, if they don't behave themselves! :-P
Quote:
Well, I love Elisabeth and Amy Carmichael

I love Amy Carmichael too - haven't read much of Elisabeth Eliot
Quote:
I wondered earlier why LittleGift was laughing at me. :-(
(Funny LittleGift - I ain't got 4 eyes neither. :)

It just seemed so funny, Wallpaper instead of Wallbuilder! I really did laugh out loud.

If it makes you feel any better, I once made a rather brilliant joke and then had to have it explained to me! I wondered why everyone was hooting wityh laughter. When they realised I didn't "get it" myself, you can imaginethe reaction!

Strange how one little mistake can make thigs so strange, and sometimes funny. When I first strarted working n a care home the matron used to often write in the notes that someone was "Very quite" She meant "very quiet" but it sounds almost like the way folks in my home area sometimes talk, (Used the illustration, "I won't do it now, I'll do it again." a little while ago. Like the Mad Hatter's tea party it does make some kind of sense, as when the Hatter said to Alice, "Have some more tea", when she hadn't had any yet, pointing out that it's very easy to have more than nothing!

Anyway, I'm starting to ramble. Maybe its time for this old lady to go to bed!

Thanks for the comic relief - we need it sometimes when on a serious topic where folk get too intense :-D


Jeannette

 2007/6/6 18:00









 Re:

Quote:

roadsign wrote:
Quote:
physically women are on average smaller and more lightly built than men. At puberty, the higher testosterone levels actually make a boy's muscles stronger, weight for weight, than a girl's Emotionally women also tend to be more vulnerable in some ways. Men tend to be more assertive and decisive Many men are therefore better fitted for leadership roles than most women.


Jeannette, it occurred to me that God often didn't depend on natural “advantages”. He even chose the weak on purpose.

True, I was speaking in general, merely human, terms, rather than spiritual, but the spiritual point you make is important - thanks for the reminder.

Re male leadership, there's also the fact of a man usually having a deeper voice, that carries more of the "sound" of authority. We women have to (in the natural) work harder at earning respect because we are often less physically imposing. The tragedy is that when God does give a woman authority - of any kind - people are less likely to listen. Unless she forfeits femininity, and perhaps the grace of God in her life, by being too bossy and aggressive,in an attempt to be heard at all.

Is that also why small people (male or female) tend to be more aggressive than large people?

After the Resurrection the men despised the women's witness, and Jesus had to appear to them in person before they would believe.
Quote:
Quote:
(that is no excuse for being domineering!).


True for all of us, really. Sadly, our gender tensions spill out of past abuse of authority. Modern movements like liberation theology which includes feminist hermeneutics seems to be an over-reaction to the social/gender injustices against the poor and against women. Add to the mix our social beliefs that gender equality refers to job opportunities, status, income, hierarchy positions, etc. Put that into the church, and leadership has more to do with status than actual work of making disciples. (I am broad-sweeping here)

Like the hyaenas maybe? Some women feel as if they are treated as second-class citizens, which they still are in some cultures, and over react by trying to be more aggressive and assertive than men!

Quote:
I suspect that this gender issue would quickly cease to be a problem if persecution broke out.

You mean "[i]when[/i] persecution breaks out"
Quote:
When the status, income, and social standing of one acclaimed to be a spiritual leader is removed, then only those who are truly called by God, and willing to be put in prison and die will persevere - being enabled by God. … Tested by fire…. That will reveal the truth of one’s calling.

Yes, thanks for pointing this out.

Quote:
In the meantime, I support an aspect of Krispy’s points. (don’t fall over, Krispy) The fact that thousands of women may have been spiritual leaders cannot be a criteria for me or any women. We are each accountable to God, not statistics.

That's so true

Quote:
I have a question: What do we do with the fact that the Bible was written essentially for men, and through the eyes of men and their issues. Ex: Proverbs uses “you” all the way through. He's talking to men, and one CAN’T gender-neutralize a lot of those examples – ex about avoiding the wayward woman. Proverbs 31 switches to the third person – not speaking TO the woman but ABOUT the woman – still speaking to men. You find that even in the epistles. If the Bible was read and studied by men back then, how could women every be in a position to teach – apart from promoting opinions and heresies?

Never really thought of that one! Of course it was a male-dominated society...

Quote:
Just think how radical it would have been for Mary to be allowed to sit at the feet of Jesus. That would have been forbidden in that dayHow does that relate to this topic.... I'm not sure? Maybe someone else sees some light..

I did mention Mary in a previous thread on this topic. ...That this may have been the real reason for Martha's reaction, instead of the reason she gave when she complained to Jesus about it. In sitting at Jesus' feet Mary was putting herself in the position of a disciple - with the men. And in those days [i]a disciple was expected to go out and teach the things the Master said[/i] (thus becoming "apostles" - sent ones.

I get the impression that it never even occurred to Mary that others might criticise her for it, she just wanted to listen and learn from Him. Perhaps the male disciples were too shocked to say anything! Or they were waiting for Jesus to send her away. But instead He defended her.


Blessings

Jeannette

 2007/6/6 18:40









 Re:Woman's Intuition -ha.

Hi LittleGiftSheep and Hi Diane.

I was just reading an article someone sent me.

http://www.psychologytoday.com/articles/pto-20070424-000001.html

Ha - with my M.E. Cog-fog, I found it a bit interesting. Especially down at the bottomish of the first page about "the cereal" -- haaa.

The article's not about "woman" - but I was afraid the men here wouldn't grant me the authority to post anything secular, unless I attributed some weakness of woman. :-? Har !

Yeah, talk about strange ways to make peace Jeanette --- did you catch the one I did for you with the "Father Abraham" Song in it.

When all else fails in love & war --- "act nuts".
David did.


Love you all.
:-?

 2007/6/6 19:12
Christinyou
Member



Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3707
Ca.

 Re:

"""The article's not about "woman" - but I was afraid the men here wouldn't grant me the authority to post anything secular, unless I attributed some weakness of woman. Har"""

This does not sound like: 1Pe 3:4 But [let it be] the hidden man of the heart, in that which is not corruptible, [even the ornament] of a meek and quiet spirit, which is in the sight of God of great price

1 Peter 3:2-9 While they behold your chaste conversation coupled with fear. Whose adorning let it not be that outward adorning of plaiting the hair, and of wearing of gold, or of putting on of apparel; But let it be the hidden man of the heart, in that which is not corruptible, even the ornament of a meek and quiet spirit, which is in the sight of God of great price. For after this manner in the old time the holy women also, who trusted in God, adorned themselves, being in subjection unto their own husbands: Even as Sara obeyed Abraham, calling him lord: whose daughters ye are, as long as ye do well, and are not afraid with any amazement. Likewise, ye husbands, dwell with them according to knowledge, giving honour unto the wife, as unto the weaker vessel, and as being heirs together of the grace of life; that your prayers be not hindered. Finally, be ye all of one mind, having compassion one of another, love as brethren, be pitiful, be courteous: Not rendering evil for evil, or railing for railing: but contrariwise blessing; knowing that ye are thereunto called, that ye should inherit a blessing.

given to hospitality, apt to teach;

2Ti 2:24 And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all [men], apt to teach, patient,

In Christ: Phillip




_________________
Phillip

 2007/6/6 19:32Profile





©2002-2020 SermonIndex.net
Promoting Genuine Biblical Revival.
Affiliate Disclosure | Privacy Policy