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PaulWest
Member



Joined: 2006/6/28
Posts: 3405
Dallas, Texas

 Re:

Quote:
Whatever it is, if there is anything that needs to be forgiven sister it is so far back in my heart and mind as to be given without the asking ... all the time, all the way back to the cross that forgave us all.



Dear Annie, my sentiments echo Mike's. If there is anything troubling your conscience [i]on my part[/i], please have freedom and cleansing knowing you are utterly and totally forgiven for whatever it could be.

Continue to be blessed and move and have your being in Christ, dear sister.

Brother Paul


_________________
Paul Frederick West

 2007/7/3 8:04Profile









 Re: Are Women Totally Forbidden to Teach?


Jeanette,

Brilliant!

Thank you for striding out in preaching mode. :-)

I very much enjoyed your post.

 2007/7/3 8:15









 Re: Are Women Totally Forbidden to Teach?


Forrest wrote

Quote:
My dear one, you specified men in your request for an answer to the above.

I fear that the men may not even understand the question, looking at 'abortion' as last minute contraconception, as opposed to the very real issue at stake.

If you want women to answer that question, well, then I will. But not on a 'Is a Woman Forbidden to Teach' thread.

The answer is not relevant here, nor is it an issue of doctrine, but an interpretation of law, and hence is a subjective opinion, in my belief.

But if you post the thread in the General Topic's section, I'll answer, and then we will really see the fur fly!

Dear Forrest,

I'm willing to open a thread only because I'd like to hear what you would say, which adds to previous discussions on this, but please, not to [i]make[/i] 'the fur fly' :-?

 2007/7/3 10:55









 Re:

Brother Paul, thank you and thank you for your contributions on this Site.

Earlier on this thread, I said that I think this verse in question is the handshake of "teaching with authority" over men.

I don't think men can't learn something-or-other from women ..... But I think the woman must have that 'shame-facedness' that the angels had in Is. 6: 1-3. That is why woman need a "covering".

A covering is a man standing behind them, watching over them and their doctrine.
If they don't have a husband or a spiritual husband then they should have a trust-worthy Brother.

Most of the ladies I know that are in the Ministry Do and definitely should. No questions asked.

Even on the Internet, even on Forums. A woman should be covered by an elder brother - in the Biblical sense of that word. Or at the least, a mature woman to council with, like some ladies here like E. Elliot or Nancy Lee DeMoss.

I mentioned "flesh hooks" somewhere and that is what the Professors we had would call it, when a woman gets herself under the skin/mind/psyche/psuche of a man and begins to lead that man in such a way that he looses touch with who 'he' is or was before allowing himself to come under her.

My heart goes out to both men and women, but there is a balance in this women teaching men stuff. Men can learn 'from' a women, but should always be his own man before GOD and under other men of sound doctrinal beliefs for protection.
I guess accountability is a good word.

The women I saw in the WOF circles and elsewhere are very subtle in their getting men under them, and use quite a bit of wiles or tricks and scripture to do so.

Dragging the men along without the men even being conscious that they are being 'led' to change or see things "differently" because of the constant downloading (sometimes even subliminally) into the man's mind, that the woman with a strong desire for a following does.

I don't practice Psychology, but have studied human nature I say. Sometimes you must, just in order to survive.

I know manipulation when I see it ... and this is what Eve was all about and why Paul said what he did to Timothy in Paul's "Pastoral" Epistle.
We all need to pray for discernment, both men and women, and to study what manipulation is and it's techniques (diaprax), whether a man is using it or a woman, it doesn't matter in this.

I've seen the most teachable - (the kind these women [or men] like best) be changed (if no other way but personality wise) and have their vision obscured by just one woman usurping dominance by subtle wording and slight of hand (words).

Mike also knows the power of individual words, when reading things. I also said, the words used need be studied - one by one - in order to see what a person is really saying and watching men shift their stance or suddenly get confused or suddenly side against something or someone, just because of what a woman has said .... it goes on and on, but I think I've done my best to get my point out here about Timothy's verses.

Men can use this method of changing minds also and the practice is from Hell.

Anyway, I wanted to clear up what I've written on women teaching men and thank you Paul also.

LORD help us all to purify our hearts.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Off Subject here --- I want to answer PMs or send one, but I still can't.
I pressed CTRL while clicking the reply button but still no good.

So if I can't answer or send PMs, I pray anyone sending any will know why I can't respond.
But if anyone sends their email address, I will email back. Sorry for the inconvenience. I can't figure this hindrance out.
I can't do a lot of emails though, with health limits, but I don't want to 'not' reply to PMs.
Thanks!

 2007/7/4 13:22









 Re: Are Women Totally Forbidden to Teach?

Annie, it is interesting that you have written this here today, because I didn't read it till now when I came to post my own little increase in understanding about one thing in particular. I was going to leave it at that, but, I will say a little more because you've mentioned shamefastness.

You said:

Quote:
I don't think men can't learn something-or-other from women ..... But I think the woman must have that 'shame-facedness' that the angels had in Is. 6: 1-3. That is why woman need a "covering".

A covering is a man standing behind them, watching over them and their doctrine. If they don't have a husband or a spiritual husband then they should have a trust-worthy Brother.

I have been musing over Mike's allusions on p24 and this came to me with regard to his concern over gender issues.

'religion pure and undefiled with the God and Father is this, to look after orphans and widows in their tribulation--unspotted to keep himself from the world.' - James 1:27 - Young

On re-reading your opening Mike, I realised you had said you no longer wished to be addressed personally, so, I'm writing it to [u]all[/u] the brethren who want to see the sisters follow the order they see in scripture.

However, I would like to mention that there is nothing in what James said which refers only to sisters; women outside the church would qualify also, for such support.

What came to me this evening, is that if this miinistry was being given by brethren, there would [u]be no[/u] sisters on their own, without the covering of which Annie writes.


Moving on to shamefastness, I looked it up in dictionary.com and was surprised to find it. I am not keen on changing it to shamefacedness, which does mean something different. A person who is shamefaced, has something to be ashamed of, and no woman should be ashamed of her womanity.

[i]Shamefast she was in maiden shamefastness. --Chaucer.

[Conscience] is a blushing shamefast spirit. --Shak.

Modest apparel with shamefastness. --1 Tim. ii. 9 (Rev. Ver.).[/i]


The word fast is used in the Bible comfortably, to mean abstinence, most famously in Isaiah 58, from sin:

to loose the bands of wickedness, to undo the heavy burdens, and to let the oppressed go free, and that ye break every yoke? 7 [i]Is it[/i] not to deal thy bread to the hungry, and that thou bring the poor that are cast out to thy house? when thou seest the naked, that thou cover him; and that thou hide not thyself from thine own flesh? 8 [u]Then[/u] shall thy light break forth as the morning, and thine health shall spring forth speedily: and thy righteousness shall go before thee; the glory of the LORD shall be thy rereward.


So, to fast from shame or shame-producing behaviour I can follow, but MacArthur said right at the start of this paragraph on the meaning of shamefast:

'... I am ashamed if I in any way would ever contribute to someone else's thought being an evil thought, a lustful thought, a thought of illicit desire, or that I should ever distract anyone from a proper worship of God...'

thus pushing more into it than the word can possibly mean.

A woman can fast from flaunting her body, from thinking improperly, and can dress in a spiritually modest manner, but, it is not hers to take responsibility for what men in her company are thinking in respect of her dress.


It is interesting that James' statement about pure religion brings this right-heartedness into the formula for brethren attending to the deserted women and children in their communities.

The prospect then raises other issues about how this could be done. Clearly, it is not merely about what happens when the saints gather. Or, for married couples to thrash out privately.

 2007/7/4 23:29









 Re: shamefacedness

Shame-[u]Face[/u]-d-ness.

G127
αιδώς
aidōs
ahee-doce'
Perhaps from G1 (as a negative particle) and G1492 (through the idea of downcast eyes); bashfulness, that is, (towards men), modesty or (towards God) awe: - reverence, shamefacedness.

G127
αιδώς
aidōs
Thayer Definition:
1) a sense of shame or honour, modesty, bashfulness, reverence, regard for others, respect

G127
αιδώς
aidōs
Total KJV Occurrences: 2

reverence, 1
Heb_12:28 Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear ...

shamefacedness, 1
1Ti_2:9

1Ti 2:9 In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with braided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array.
1Ti 2:10 But (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works.
1Ti 2:11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
1Ti 2:12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
1Ti 2:13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve.
1Ti 2:14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.
1Ti 2:15 Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.

 2007/7/4 23:57
crsschk
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Can't stay away ...

"[i]All men are liars ...[/i]"

With that as a backdrop of a certain play on my own seemingly indecisiveness ...

Quote:
Off Subject here --- I want to answer PMs or send one, but I still can't.
I pressed CTRL while clicking the reply button but still no good.

So if I can't answer or send PMs, I pray anyone sending any will know why I can't respond.
But if anyone sends their email address, I will email back. Sorry for the inconvenience. I can't figure this hindrance out.
I can't do a lot of emails though, with health limits, but I don't want to 'not' reply to PMs.
Thanks!



I am a baffled sister as to what might be going on here. Will bring it to Greg's attention to see if he knows of any possibilities, if you haven't yet maybe you could send both of us an email describing your system, what Windows version you are using, firewall\anti-virus and any other thing that you can think of, troubles elsewhere that you may be experiencing etc. From what I could see it appears that your account here is O.K. but you never know ...

To the subject matter and before that a preface ... Thought about doing this in private but think it needs to be spoken publicly since we have something of a varied past here. To those who know and those who do not, bluntly it was not a very pleasant one overall. We certainly rubbed each other the wrong way and for my part in all this ...

Dear sister I have come to appreciate something tremendous, and that it is wonderful to be wrong sometimes. I can't tell if it is myself that has changed or yourself or both and frankly if anything it is those things that I had wrong that would concern me and I want to confess here. What are they? Since you last left for a season and if the memory serves correctly it was myself that helped usher some of that reason, forgive me sister, I really do not remember all the reasons and so much is misunderstood and made that way by wrong notions or perhaps even right ones where conduct and all those kinds of things pertain ... But it is this primarily; One of the things that developed more and more was to put a decided halt to presumption and assumption and reading too much into things. It is difficult here often times to continue to be diligent on this point. "Inference" and suspicion of the wrong kind ... Oh it is diabolical the things that we allow to develop in notions of each other.

Change. That willingness to reconsider and then the rarest of this whole form ... to actually do it has got to be next to just real honesty and actually a derivative of it the single most endearing thing to this fool. I am seeing a change in you dear sister and the wonder is that it may be only my perception that is seeing things so differently. That being said even elsewhere have noticed the corrections over the course of replies that you have made, I hope also that I can be made more willing still to do the same. God love you Annie, had to make this acknowledgment before all.


Quote:
On re-reading your opening Mike, I realised you had said you no longer wished to be addressed personally, so, I'm writing it to all the brethren who want to see the sisters follow the order they see in scripture.



Not sure that was for 'all time' just was getting weary of hearing my own name and was trying to just dislodge myself and opinion from the matter. I don't really want to ... over-think this matter any longer. I guess I am just becoming more and more a spiritual roots kind of ... thinker, worshiper, proponent .. insert any compatible word. There is just so much that is tortured and confused in this hour, it pains me and pain does not always speak well perhaps.


_________________
Mike Balog

 2007/7/5 8:43Profile









 Re:We shouldn't have to stay away ...

Psa 116:10,11 I believed, therefore have I spoken: I was greatly afflicted: I said in my haste, All men are liars.

Thank GOD T.A. Sparks says (besides the Word), that they needn't be. :-)

Hey, you've changed too. 8-)

I think if neither of us did, we'd have some accounting to do before GOD.

We were taught, that if you're standing still in your walk, you're going to go backwards.
That's there's no 'stationary' position in Christ.
Or if ya ain't rowing up stream, against the current, the current will take ya back down stream.

Yes, I've mentioned to someone that it was your shtick that GOD used as in Rom 8:28 for 29.

I see ALL THINGS are for that purpose of vs 29.

But, it's progressive so none of us are 'there' yet. Just trying to see what good can come out of even the things that go against the grain.

But I also think at the same time, that there was some misunderstanding between us, but that I see is only because we were sort of cut from the same cloth.
Except for your style of expressing yourself compared to mine, I'm still from Joysey and kept things simple as a habit so that all can understand, but I've always seen that we have much in common, but that is good - except it can get us getting angry at the commonality because we're frustrated with that particular thing we see in ourselves.
Besides, electronic communicating is the hardest thing in the world for me personally. Truthfully. I'm an eyeball to eyeball type person.

Anyhow, I pray if you don't see me again for another year, that you'll be able to say you see more change in me. I pray that!

I've seen growth in most of the members here since last year. Not all though - but that's none of our business. I know if GOD can work in a jaw-bone-thrasher like me, God is Faithful, especially through adversity, affliction, thorns and trials to do His work.

My heart goes out to you, because you can't take a year off or six months as I have a few times now to revamp, but I think you're doing great even without it. Also considering you work a job, have a home and family to care for, plus Church and then us here. Hoy-vey!

I don't want to hurt anyone Mike ... my only desire is to see us all together in that Big Conference-Plus when He returns.

You and I both "worry" about others, and that's the only time I think we've lost-it.
Rather that - than one be callous of others.
Correction can be a very draining and hard thing for us to find ourselves doing to anyone. It makes me physically sick brother, so I can only imagine what it's done to you.

Thank you and stay well encouraged in His Finishing work.

Wish I had your gift of expression, because the heart is really here right now, but it's not coming out as I'd like. But thank you for keeping the 'door open' for understanding between us.

Bless you.

 2007/7/5 13:36









 Re:

Dorcas, I didn't mean to "post on a fly" up there with that definition of 'shamefacedness' or shamefastness or schamefast.

If you see posts like that, it's normally because I want someone else to speak for me.
The only reason I stressed the "face" part and not the old english word you used it because of the definition. It's only used one other time in the N.T. and that's for "reverence" so the "eyes down" part makes most sense.

I left off part of Thayers up top there.

I'll put it here and some other stuff, that explains the position.

About the over men part, I still say the teaching "with authority" seems to be the wrong direction for us to go, but I think you and all know what I meant from the beginning on that.

Again, easier to have others speak for me...

Thayer Definition:
1) a sense of shame or honour, modesty, bashfulness, reverence, regard for others, respect
Part of Speech: noun feminine
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: perhaps from G1 (as a negative particle) and G1492 [b](through the idea of downcast eyes)[/b]

From Vincent's Word Studies {again from e-sword /o: }

With shamefacedness and sobriety (μετὰ αιδους καὶ σωφροσύνης)
Αιδώς N.T. (αιδους in Heb_12:28 is an incorrect reading {Vincent prefers "pious care" over "reverence".}).
In earlier Greek, as in Homer, it sometimes blends with the sense of αισχύνη shame, though used also of the feeling of respectful timidity in the presence of superiors, or of penitent respect toward one who has been wronged (see Homer, Il. i. 23). Hence it is connected in Homer with military discipline (Il. v. 531). It is the feeling of a suppliant or an unfortunate in the presence of those from whom he seeks aid; of a younger man toward an older and wiser one. It is a feeling based upon the sense of deficiency, inferiority, or unworthiness.
On the other hand, it is the feeling of a superior in position or fortune which goes out to an unfortunate. See Homer, Il. xxiv. 208; Od. xiv. 388; Soph. Oed. Col. 247. In the Attic period, a distinction was recognised between αισχύνη and αιδώς: αιδώς representing a respectful and reverent attitude toward another, while αισχύνη was the sense of shame on account of wrong doing. Thus, “one αιδειται is respectful to his father, but αισχύνεται is ashamed because he has been drunk.”
Trench (N.T. Synon. § xix.) remarks that “αιδώς is the nobler word and implies the nobler motive. In it is involved an innate moral repugnance to the doing of the dishonorable act, which moral repugnance scarcely or not at all exists in the αισχύνη. Let the man who is restrained by αισχύνη alone be insured against the outward disgrace which he fears his act will entail, and he will refrain from it no longer.” The A.V. shamefacedness is a corruption of the old English shamefastness. So Chaucer:
“Schamefast chastite.”
Knight's T. 2057.
Shakespeare:
“'Tis a blushing shamefast spirit that mutinies in a man's bosom.”
Richard III. i. 4.
It is one of a large class of words, as steadfast, soothfast, rootfast, masterfast, handfast, bedfast, etc. Shamefaced changes and destroys the original force of the word, which was bound or made fast by an "honorable shame".

Contrast: Isa 3:16 Moreover the LORD saith, Because the daughters of Zion are haughty, and walk with stretched forth necks and wanton eyes, walking and mincing as they go, and making a tinkling with their feet:


Robertson's ...
With shamefastness (meta aidous). Old word for shame, reverence, in N.T. only here and Heb_12:28.


I liked the part on "sobriety" too from Vincent's ...

Σωφροσύνη sobrietys oP. Once in Acts, Act_26:25. The kindred verb σωφρονειν to be of sound mind, Rom_12:3-5; 2Co_5:13; Tit_2:6. Several representatives of this family of words appear in the Pastorals, and with the exception of σωφροσύνη and σωφρονειν, nowhere else in N.T. Such are σωφρονίζειν to be soberminded (Tit_2:4); σωφρονισμός discipline (2Ti_1:7); σωφρόνως soberly (Tit_2:12); σώφρων soberminded (1Ti_3:2). The word is compounded of σάος or σως safe, sound, and φρήν mind. It signifies entire command of the passions and desires; a self-control which holds the rein over these. So Aristotle (Rhet. i. 9): The virtue by which we hold ourselves toward the pleasures of the body as. the law enjoins.” Comp. 4 Macc. 1:31. Euripides calls it “the fairest gift of the gods” (Med. 632). That it appears so rarely in N.T. is, as Trench remarks, “not because more value was attached to it in heathen ethics than in Christian morality, but because it is taken up and transformed into a condition yet higher still, in which a man does not command himself, which is well, but, which is better still, is commanded by God.”

The words with shamefastness and sobriety may either be taken directly with adorn themselves, or better perhaps, as indicating moral qualities accompanying (μετὰ with) the modest apparel. Let them adorn themselves in modest apparel, having along with this shamefastness and sobermindedness.

G4997
σωφροσύνη
sōphrosunē
so-fros-oo'-nay
From G4998; soundness of mind, that is, (literally) sanity or (figuratively) self control: - soberness, sobriety.

sobriety, 2
1Ti_2:9, 1Ti_2:15
soberness, 1
Act_26:25


So according to all of this, I may have my eyes down, but not fully of a sound mind yet.

Probably why I run into walls {or other things} an awful lot.

And do best when I don't speak for myself.

:-?

 2007/7/6 17:55









 Re: Are Women Totally Forbidden to Teach?


Hi Annie,

Thanks for posting all this.

I realised this:

'Shamefaced changes and destroys the original force of the word, which was bound or made fast by an "honorable shame". '

but I knew from long ago, that 'ai' in Greek means WOE, and so I reckoned that the rest of the Greek letters amended the 'woe' somehow, so that the way we use 'shame' normally, is not what the writer meant by 'shamefaced'.

I like the use of 'fast' as in fasten, which also means to stop something from happening.


It's pretty hard to lift up your hands in prayer, and keep your face turned down (as Paul tells Timothy we should stand to pray), so the whole speaks much more of an attitude of heart, I believe, than an physical practice of looking down [i]all the time[/i] in 'church' ...

 2007/7/6 19:07





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