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 Re:

I've literally been grounded like powder by the Lord's conviction that I've held back things in order to "go along to get along".

We are from the "old Church" and we're facing this "new" church, which I feel is called the Apostate Church.

If you have two parallel lines, that start off 'just a hair' off, well then, ten miles down the road they are miles apart.

That is what a little error does.

Again, a main clincher in the AoG statement.

Quote:
Although the Holy Spirit may be active in the work of translation and interpretation, we cannot claim inerrancy for interpretations (even of extant Hebrew or Greek texts).



Doesn't anyone see what this is saying ???


[b]This[/b] is the problem in every facet of the new church.

We take "our opinions first" and then go to the Bible to find proof-texts to support our opinions --- but, had cross-referencing, proper exegesis, etc. been done on any verse, with openness and even using Church History, with an unbiased heart ... these beliefs would fall or if GOD's Word had been Central or jealously guarded in the heart, despite the opposition it proves to incite, from others or our own 'desires'.

We don't apply 'child like' dependence and openness with The Father and apply Jn 16:13.
I love that verse, for it's promise, that's why my sig.. He never contradicts His Word.

That's the core of this all. And not just on this thread but in this whole last days "church".

Go off just a tad and you find yourself in with those who will be deceived in these days, of the great falling away from The Truth that Jesus warned about.

"Woman ruling over you" is a former and last days curse.

Only on Forums have I seen this "lead ewe" mentality - but have heard of it more in the WOF circles.
I used to raise sheep, so I'm quite familiar with that alagory/reality.
I heard on the radio last week, that one lead ewe walked off a cliff. I think the program was from Answers in Genesis.
Anyway, 400 others followed (some didn't - thank God), not all died though, because they were falling on the carcases of those who fell before them.
I'd prefer to think that I have been one that fell on the carcases of others ... and then later become one of the ones who didn't follow when it happens(ed) again.

Equality is great, if used properly without the "control" monster that's in all of human's nature. That would go for both male and female.
There are those who want to be lead bulls too.
The last thing we see in ourselves is this control issue that stems from self/pride-(same thing). That's why Mike requested the more meek ladies to post here --- I'm not that meek.

That's why it is so safe when we talk to each other with Scripture only, believing it IS inerrant [u]and not believing that some Scriptures can nullify others.[/u] That's happening on many threads and fellowships and Churches even now & Always has.

This isn't just a woman thing, it's "jealousy [u]for[/u] His Word" and not our own thoughts/opinions/agendas/ego, and so forth.

Started in the Garden. Satan asked, "Did God say ?" Eve's mistake was to first even dialoge with that stinkin' serpant and then to except that question into her mind, then she changed God's word by saying, "we can't even touch it".
Just that wee little addition to what God said, did it. And that the fact that she 'doubted' what GOD SAID. Then for the "knowledge" the power to be as God ... as Satan fell.
That is why Paul used Eve of where/why deception can enter in those verses. Not that man doesn't fall to deception through ego also.
No need for any lead ewes or lead bulls here .... this is just a place of fellowship ... and the sharing of the Whole Council of God only - as best as we can see it all.

What saddens me though, is that divisions come up so quickly when folks get mad that you don't agree with them and stop fellowshiping over 'it', even though we're all 'Christians' here. Where's the witness to His Love in that ?
I used to be on a Christian site that had many atheists and agnostics that enjoyed hearing our views and debating us. It was sort of pleasant actually. Good for honing evangelism gifts.

Bless youse all.

 2007/6/15 14:39
crsschk
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Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Annie

Amen Annie!


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Mike Balog

 2007/6/15 16:13Profile
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Posts: 3776


 Re: Annie


Quote:
one big pedantic stew (Mike B)


This comment made me chuckle. Indeed, the issue is irresolvable, no doubt, because of our partial-sightedness, and because it’s impossible for any of us to be totally free from some degree of cultural/background assumptions. We easily merge the Bible with our cultural preunderstandings (as seen in the matrimonial rites thread). So we may as well smile a few times; and submit to God. He can lead us, PTL!

I believe that Romans 14 was written specifically to make allowances for the differing convictions of others: ie Refrain from doing in front of others what violates THEIR consciences. And in the meantime, we realize that each person is God’s workmanship, accountable to him, and he can handle them. (Can men accept that about women?) Paul even acknowledged that even if the gospel was being preached by those with FALSE motives, AT LEAST IT WAS BEING PREACHED! (Now, there’s some elastic!)

So, here I am, preparing for 9+ preaching appointments. I humbly realize that the very thought of that will be repulsive to some here. Yup! I could indeed have some false motives. But for me, beyond doubt, God has been preparing and leading. To resist is to invite divine rebuke (of which I’ve experienced) To question and keep on putting out the fleece would betray my Lord. I must move beyond the quagmire (pedantic stew, and strong opposition) and get down to business. In fact lingering there has a tendency to oppress my mind. (so I cannot read some posts) I need to keep my mind and spirit free to seek God, hear the Spirit, and focus on the Word. (Right now I am in awe as I prepare an expository sermon on the Lord’s Prayer. It has tremendous implications – a powerful salvation message tool - not just a vain repetition.)

Quote:
"all things be done decently and in order" (1 Corinthians 14:40)


You don’t go and preach in a church unless you are invited. Doing so would be just as ridiculous and unorderly as interrupting a sermon just because you disagree with it. Even men would NOT do that today, even though it WAS permissible in the first century.

Quote:
In some settings, female spiritual leadership is readily accepted;


It’s interesting that God called me out of the conservative evangelical church and planted me firmly on "foreign soil” – a mainline church. But now I see why. They are willing to receive the Word from a female because they are used to female preachers. I’ve had 6+ years to learn about this branch of Christendom, and that helps me in preparing sermons. They don’t think like evangelicals, or use the same clichés or lingo. I need to preach from THEIR map.

It has occurred to me that nowhere does the Bible call Christians to change existing cultural practises – even slavery. That didn’t make it right. It’s just that God seems to call us to accept our lot, and practise love within it. We are called to live a life of peace – as far as it depends on us (Rom. 12) To me, that principle would imply that where the voice of a woman is not accepted today, I stay silent. (What I say would not be accepted there anyway.)

BUT where God opens the door for me and calls me, I will preach the Word of God with all my heart, soul, and strength! It is the great commission!


"Pray ... for me that whenever I open my mouth, words may be given me so that I may fearlessly make known the mystery of the gospel,.... " Eph. 6:19

So, are you going to pray that God shuts my mouth:-x or opens it:eek: ?

Diane





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Diane

 2007/6/15 17:19Profile
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 Re:

Diane, I wish I were there to hear you. I pray that God will use you to His Glory and it might be dynamic and full of acceptance and save His chosen children and bring them into the sheep pen where Christ is waiting.

Quote, Diane:
""Pray ... for me that whenever I open my mouth, words may be given me so that I may fearlessly make known the mystery of the gospel,.... " Eph.""

Col 1:26 [Even] the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:

Col 1:27 To whom God would make known what [is] the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory

That gospel is Paul's, given him by Christ that is "Christ in you the Hope of Glory"

In Christ: Phillip


_________________
Phillip

 2007/6/15 17:50Profile









 Re:

Quote:
Forrest said:Strange that a woman being ordained a minister troubles people so - it's merely a public pronouncement of the willingness to serve, and the call of God being acted upon.

I that's so true! The word "minister" means "servant"!

I think I said, and read and pondered and prayed all I should on this thread, so will bow out for now
;-)

Love to all

In Him

Jeannette

 2007/6/15 18:37









 Re:

Just re-reading page 6 and enjoying once again the fellowship that was there.

Reckon, that was the bottom line of my last post though.

Bless y'all.
Annie

 2007/6/15 18:47
crsschk
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re: One morsel of ...

Hi Diane, glad for the chuckle ... made me chuckle as well, not sure where it came from and rather off the cuff. But to look at it all again, isn't this seemingly so? That we are confusing matters and settings, authority that is God given and God driven and ordered as well?

Have been really still trying to keep my particular focus strictly to one sense and that of usurping and boundaries contained in the main verse and the similar in 1 Tim. It seems like all the other settings and situations have to come crowding in a bit to fast before this matter is settled and that is why I think it has become so confused, muddled and seemingly impossible to come to terms with. Anything from male domination to the other examples of evangelists and prophetess of the other gender courting for opinion on just what was meant in these two main instances.

Now I may be doing much the same by way of contrast or rather feel that I may have to somewhat to stress the point. What I am driving at is that I am not convinced by most of these arguments at all. To go back to the very striking aspect mentioned a bit back now am puzzled there was no response to it as it certainly seems very foundational and am just as puzzled as it seems to be something displaced as unimportant.

[b]Let a woman learn quietly with all submissiveness. I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet.

[u]For[/u] Adam was formed first, then Eve; and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor.[/b]
1Ti 2:11-14

There is a bit of a question that comes up straight away where you said;

Quote:
I believe that Romans 14 was written specifically to make allowances for the differing convictions of others: ie Refrain from doing in front of others what violates THEIR consciences.



1Co 14:34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.

In the one instance (1 Tim) Paul is stating "I" followed up quite closely with the very pertinent "[i]For[/i]". In the other there is the telling aspect of ...

[i]but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law[/i]

Commanded? And which law is he appealing to? To bring in John Gill again;

[i]But they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law. In Gen_3:16, "thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee". By this the apostle would signify, that the reason why women are not to speak in the church, or to preach and teach publicly, or be concerned in the ministerial function, is, because this is an act of power, and authority; of rule and government, and so contrary to that subjection which God in his law requires of women unto men. The extraordinary instances of Deborah, Huldah, and Anna, must not be drawn into a rule or example in such cases.[/i]

Both of these appear to be appealing to foundational order and aspects laid out in the book of Genesis. This, if anything is what I have been driving at and that which has my attention.

From a very personal standpoint it seems practically absurd to even make mention once again how I [i]feel[/i] towards you and so many of our sisters here, am much more inclined to the spiritual principle also made mentioned of in;

Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

Still, these things cannot be contradictory or pieced together haphazardly (one big pedantic stew). Something is still amiss. We are and are made 'one' with certainty but likewise the joining of the flesh by matrimony, the orders remain and the functions and duties are not dissolved by this union.

There is still much the measure of pragmatism that is too uncomfortable for me to swallow in a lot of this. To challenge this by way of experience, how many things in our tenure along the Pilgrims Progress have had to be reaccessed and re-thought? Things that we had such a certainty were 'of the Lord' that turned out to be anything from our ignorance, presumption, heart felt, wishful thinking, even decidedly deeply 'understood' things that ended up not being what we thought they were? An over active imagination, bad pizza, trying circumstances and emotional responses, a whole gamut of things. Far be it from me to cast doubt in any single souls mind, I am only speaking of honesty when the little schemes we have set up in our heads (Philologos) don't pan out accordingly and we have to get once again honest with ourselves, shake off the illusions and say ... "I am off here. Got that one wrong."

Hardly is it a cause for dire mourning most times just the opposite that we can be again humbled by how little we do truly grasp and how much we fallen heads still tote around our dead mans luggage. Thank God that He won't leave us alone with paltry decisions and half baked answers ...

Yours is a peculiar situation in that on the one hand have never ... 'felt' the sense of usurping in the ultimate spiritual order by way of that which you have ever shared here, quite the contrary and in this setting it is generally much more sharing and comparing, a fellowshipping and learning from each other.

There are times when those lines are blurred here however and they vary over the course of the history being made here. It is that very blurring itself and the more pressing questions laid out in these scriptures in 'first instance' style speaking that has me still yet questioning much of this.

Quote:
So, are you going to pray that God shuts my mouth or opens it ?



Neither sister. Only that you be obedient to His word and to His still small voice that speaks through it.

Much love, of course.


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Mike Balog

 2007/6/16 1:17Profile
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 Re: A Woman Speaking Under Authority

Quote:

murdog wrote:
Forrest,

Quote:
And frankly, I think those that take the postiion of Paul's scant word in two places forming the whole of Christian thought on women in the Church is limited.



1 Corinthians 14:33-35

1 Timothy 2:11-15

There may be only two references but they are extremely clear.

Quote:
I would say that my main dispute with the 'Authority' in the church is when a learned woman with a great deal of experience in the mission fields or in local outreach, or in just reading her bible is politely told to 'shut up', when what they have to say may be the very word of God.



If there were meant to be clauses in the two scriptures I posted above I think the Holy Spirit would have included them.

ex. "As in all the congregations of the saints, women should remain silent; unless you have extensive mission field experience, local outreach experience or you just read your bible a whole lot."

I believe your main dispute is with the authority of scripture.

Murray




I dispute neither the texts, nor the Spiritual Authority of God behind them, nor do I disobey them. I have no calling from God to make me desire to disobey what is the general thought in regards to spiritual authority in the church.

I dispute the righteousness of men taking only those two quotes, and using them against women speaking or teaching in church, or with authority over a man, while no attention is paid to how Paul actually dealt with women throughout his ministry.

And I wonder at the Church Corporate that is full of particularly well taught women, with gifts of prophecy or teaching NOT being made use of when the Church Corporate is running right off the tracks with the marvellously authoritative male Bishops, Pastors and Teachers that are in power.

To state my position on the matter is an easy task. I relate the spiritual authority and responsibility of the Church directly to the admonitions given to each brother of the church.

[color=993300]Ephesians 5:1. Be ye therefore followers of God, as dear children;
2. And walk in love, as Christ also hath loved us, and hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweetsmelling savour....
14. Wherefore he saith, Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light.
15. See then that ye walk circumspectly, not as fools, but as wise,
16. Redeeming the time, because the days are evil.
17. Wherefore be ye not unwise, but understanding what the will of the Lord is.
18. And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit;
19. Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord;
20. Giving thanks always for all things unto God and the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ;
21. Submitting yourselves one to another in the fear of God.

Colossians 3:11. Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.
12. Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;
13. Forbearing one another, and forgiving one another, if any man have a quarrel against any: even as Christ forgave you, so also do ye.
14. And above all these things put on charity, which is the bond of perfectness.
15. And let the peace of God rule in your hearts, to the which also ye are called in one body; and be ye thankful.
16. Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord.
17. And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him.....
.... 23. And whatsoever ye do, do it heartily, as to the Lord, and not unto men;
24. Knowing that of the Lord ye shall receive the reward of the inheritance: for ye serve the Lord Christ.
25. But he that doeth wrong shall receive for the wrong which he hath done: and there is no respect of persons.

Hebrews 13:15. By him therefore let us offer the sacrifice of praise to God continually, that is, the fruit of our lips giving thanks to his name.
16. But to do good and to communicate forget not: for with such sacrifices God is well pleased.
17. Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.

Galatians 3:5. He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
6. Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.
7. Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.
8. And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.
9. So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.
10. For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
11. But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
12. And the law is not of faith: but, the man that doeth them shall live in them.
13. Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
14. That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
15. Brethren, I speak after the manner of men; Though it be but a man's covenant, yet if it be confirmed, no man disannulleth, or addeth thereto.
16. Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.
17. And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.
18. For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.
19. Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.
20. Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one.
21. Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.
22. But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
23. But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
24. Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
25. But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
26. For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
27. For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
28. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
29. And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.[/color]

For if I am not your brother in the Church Corporate, then I don't exist in the New Testament, because I am female, except as an appendage to some man.

And if I am your brother, and if I am better able to pastor a church than a male brother of the church is, why do you not let me?

And you say, "but Paul said...."

Well, Paul said many things, and the majority of them are not written down. And the ones that are written down forbidding women to talk or teach in a church are disavowed by Paul's behavior in regards to women in many other places.

I personally am unconcerned by not pastoring a church because God has not called me to be a pastor.

I simply wonder why wisdom is not used in this matter. With so many churches falling to the deceit of the enemy, and so few good pastors available of the male bretheren, I simply wonder why female bretheren are not looked at for suitability.

Spiritual authority is a matter of marriage in Genesis, and the relation of a wife to her husband, and the relation of a husband to his wife.

To carry that over to the church when there are many female bretheren with Pastoring skills sitting bored to death under the teaching of a less than able male brother seems to be a nice little trick of the devil: Divide and conquer.

As for Paul not saying anything about women in the Church Corporate, he did. He said it in his actions throughout the New Testament. And he said it here:

[color=993300]Galatians 3:6. For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
27. For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
28. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
29. And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.[/color]

Strange how you of the male bretheren consistantly shove that aside, as if it doesn't count somehow.

Still, I'll happily hand over to you male bretheren those that go to church, along with the penalties for doing a really rotten job. You can talk to Jesus about it at the Bema.

The people God has sent me to don't go to church.

But my referral sheet of godly Pastors in strong churches steadily grows shorter.


Blessings,

Forrest


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Forrest Anderson

 2007/6/16 4:41Profile
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 Re:

Quote:
Neither sister. Only that you be obedient to His word and to His still small voice that speaks through it.


Ah! The best response! It releases me into the hands of God. And yes, it’s not even about speaking or not. (I assume it is understood that silence used in scripture refers to a quiet lifestyle, not being mute.)

Even silence (mute) can “shout” louder than words, and certainly has a vital place in the Body. (How many times did God himself use silence to speak - ex during judgment?)


Speaking about fusing culture and Biblical standards: Let’s admit, in our culture we have fused the preaching of the gospel with status and carreer. That is probably a real root of contention.

I must say that itinerant preaching is much like the “hired-hand” role. It is on the bottom of the rung status-wise, and financially. Considering the time put into it, you’d make a better income working at a fast-food joint. I see it as a foot-washing role.

I am not sure how to respond to your comments about Adam and Eve. I do believe that whatever curses arose from the two of them were cancelled at the cross. But as long as we live according to the flesh (which is the cultural church in general, as well as the world) we are also in bondage to all the laws of the flesh. And that will ALWAYS put barriers and walls of hostility between various parties: ex Jew/gentile, slave/master, male/female, parents/kids, etc.

The only real, permanent solution I see in the Bible is Eph. 2. In CHRIST he has broken down the wall by making new people birthed by the Spirit. In the mean time – we still have all our social classes, gender classes, etc etc and we can’t force ONENESS on what was not united in Christ - ex One-world church, equality rights, etc. I think there is a danger of trying to apply the Ephesians scriptures in a universal way. They do NOT apply. And they do not apply to those who THINK that they are saved but are really trusting in law - ie works. (That is probably our most common source of contentious divisiveness: It's a barrier that no law can eradicate.)

That would be my response to Forrest's post.


I do believe that God has called us to live in peace to the best of our ability – even if it means going the second mile, bowing out, etc.

We (genuine believers) live in two kingdoms: the Kingdom of God, and the kingdom of this world. I am concerned that we inadvertently try to merge them.

That’s where I am .... at this point………
Diane


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Diane

 2007/6/16 7:10Profile
HomeFree89
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Joined: 2007/1/21
Posts: 797
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 Re:

I'm leaving tomorrow for youth camp and will be gone for a week, but I'm still wondering about women teaching at Bible Colleges. Should women be teaching there and if not, should young men go to a Bible School that has women teachers?

Jordan


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Jordan

 2007/6/16 18:22Profile





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