Poster | Thread |
KingJimmy Member
Joined: 2003/5/8 Posts: 4419 Charlotte, NC
| Re: | | Quote:
If "all Israel" shall be saved, and I believe it, what can "Israel" mean? Does this mean every single individual of the genes of Abraham who are alive at this point will be saved?
Yes, I believe that all Jews who survive the final purging/redemptive judgment of God (in which many will die) will all be saved. _________________ Jimmy H
|
|
2007/6/7 17:02 | Profile |
philologos Member
Joined: 2003/7/18 Posts: 6566 Reading, UK
| Re: | | Quote:
Yes, I believe that all Jews who survive the final purging/redemptive judgment of God (in which many will die) will all be saved.
and how are you defining 'Jew'?
edit: ie one parent Jewish one grandparent Jewish one great grandparent Jewish one great great grandparent Jewish..
...you get my drift?
One [url=http://www.aish.com/societyWork/sciencenature/Abrahams_Chromosomes$.asp]Jewish Rabbi[/url] says "And indeed, the number of people in the world today with the "Abrahamic Genetic Signature" is too large to count precisely. A reasonable estimate is in the hundreds of millions." _________________ Ron Bailey
|
|
2007/6/7 18:07 | Profile |
IRONMAN Member
Joined: 2004/6/15 Posts: 1924 IN HEAVENLY PLACES WITH JESUS
| God knows who is a Jew and who isn't...even if we don't | | Bro Ron
Quote:
philologos wrote:
Quote:
Yes, I believe that all Jews who survive the final purging/redemptive judgment of God (in which many will die) will all be saved.
and how are you defining 'Jew'?
edit: ie one parent Jewish one grandparent Jewish one great grandparent Jewish one great great grandparent Jewish..
...you get my drift?
One [url=http://www.aish.com/societyWork/sciencenature/Abrahams_Chromosomes$.asp]Jewish Rabbi[/url] says "And indeed, the number of people in the world today with the "Abrahamic Genetic Signature" is too large to count precisely. A reasonable estimate is in the hundreds of millions."
Greetings in Christ's name brethren.
what does it matter how we define what a Jew is? The question we should be asking is how does [i][b]God[/b][/i] define who/what is a Jew. Clearly it is not wholly a thing about genetics but there is a spiritual aspect of it for which we must turn to God for explanation because our own thoughts no matter how smart are more than woefully inadequate but they are in fact abominable before Him.
God looks at the inward parts, the inward circumcision of the heart which is done by Him. God also reserves the right to elect according to His good pleasure which Jews are to be saved and this is the "All of Israel" which will be saved.
i guess we could say in short that the Jews in question here are the ones which God has called from before the setting of the foundations of the earth?
something to consider perhaps?
Grace and Peace in Christ to you all. AMEN. _________________ Farai Bamu
|
|
2007/6/7 19:00 | Profile |
KingJimmy Member
Joined: 2003/5/8 Posts: 4419 Charlotte, NC
| Re: | | Quote:
...you get my drift?
That's a great question to which God perhaps only knows. To step out on a limb, I imagine one would need to have at least one Jewish parent to be qualified. For even Christ came from a genealogy that was not entirely pure. For Rahab was a Gentile. Yet Him having this Gentile blood did not disqualify Him from being the seed of Abraham.
However, there does seem to be a point in which enough intermingling would make one not of Jewish descent. For Christ when talking to the "half-breed" Samaritan woman reminded her that "Salvation is of the Jews," and reminded the apostles in their initial mission not to go to the Samaritans, "but the lost sheep of the house of Israel."
So, it would seem that merely having a few drops of Jewish blood would not qualify one to be part of "all Israel." _________________ Jimmy H
|
|
2007/6/7 22:19 | Profile |
philologos Member
Joined: 2003/7/18 Posts: 6566 Reading, UK
| Re: | | Quote:
So, it would seem that merely having a few drops of Jewish blood would not qualify one to be part of "all Israel."
Would Caleb have been included? He was an Edomite though thoroughly one of the covenant people of Israel. _________________ Ron Bailey
|
|
2007/6/8 1:47 | Profile |
KingJimmy Member
Joined: 2003/5/8 Posts: 4419 Charlotte, NC
| Re: | | Quote:
Would Caleb have been included? He was an Edomite though thoroughly one of the covenant people of Israel.
Good question as well. Caleb is part of the "mixed multitude" that came out of Egypt, and I think one would better understand Him as a Jewish convert that finds identification with the people of God through the old covenant. I don't believe the hope of Paul in Romans 11, of the natural branches being grafted back in again, would apply to converts to Judaism. For such are not natural branches, but are wild branches, like you and me. Paul seems to have in mind those who are of semitic origins through Abraham. _________________ Jimmy H
|
|
2007/6/8 6:47 | Profile |
| Re: | | Ro 11:26 - And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
Ro 9:6-7 -Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children:
Ro 4:11 - that he might be the father of all them that believe
Ro 4:16 - Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,
Looking at all these passages, it seems to me that all Israel shall be saved, because only those who are of faith are Israel, only those who are of faith are children of Abraham, and God saves all those who are of faith.
I don't think that there will come a time when every jew converts to Christ. God will not take away their free-will, neither can the conversion of all of them be declared with certainty, since it's their own personal, voluntary, contingent choice.
But it seems to make perfect sense to say:
1. God saves all those who are of the faith
2. Only those jews that are of the faith are Israel
3. Only those who are of faith are children of Abraham
4. Therefore, all Israel shall be saved, since God saves all those of the faith, and only those of the faith are Israel.
Just some thoughts
|
|
2007/6/8 7:00 | |
philologos Member
Joined: 2003/7/18 Posts: 6566 Reading, UK
| Re: | | Quote:
I don't believe the hope of Paul in Romans 11, of the natural branches being grafted back in again, would apply to converts to Judaism.
So...'in that day' a warrior in faith like Caleb would be rejected but an atheistic, devil worshipping, descendant of Abraham (like sons of Sceva) would be included in the 'all Israel' that is to be saved? As would an untaught babe of Abraham's line and the descendant of Abraham who lies in a drunken stupor? _________________ Ron Bailey
|
|
2007/6/8 7:21 | Profile |
philologos Member
Joined: 2003/7/18 Posts: 6566 Reading, UK
| Re: | | Quote:
Looking at all these passages, it seems to me that all Israel shall be saved, because only those who are of faith are Israel, only those who are of faith are children of Abraham, and God saves all those who are of faith.
It doesn't happen very often but I have to say I agree with you on this one. _________________ Ron Bailey
|
|
2007/6/8 7:25 | Profile |
| Re: All Israel shall be saved? | | philologos said
Quote:
It doesn't happen very often but I have to say I agree with you on this one.
Greetings Jesse and Ron. May I say ditto? |
|
2007/6/8 15:26 | |