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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : What constitutes a Biblical marriage?

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tjservant
Member



Joined: 2006/8/25
Posts: 1658
Indiana USA

 Re:

Quote:
did God see them as truly married according to their official system? I certainly believe so



According to THEIR official system.

Is this the same as God's system?

If the Godliness of the minister doesn't matter, and if the participants need not have accepted Christ…what criteria is there?

Are there any requirements for entering the holy institution of marriage?

If the minister doesn’t matter
If their ideals don’t mater
If the paper documentation doesn’t matter

What makes a marriage?

Is it just a decision two consenting adults can make…regardless of there beliefs?

And when two people make this decision, God puts his binding stamp on it whether they understand it or not?


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TJ

 2007/6/2 12:28Profile
PaulWest
Member



Joined: 2006/6/28
Posts: 3405
Dallas, Texas

 Re:

Aren't God's establishments of justice and law set up on earth and entrusted to the ancillary governing agencies of men (often unsaved)? Since the banker is unsaved do I still have to pay back the loan? I took a vow of surety to pay it back, and God holds me accountable. If I took my wedding vows before an unsaved minister or someone who got their credentials from a box of breakfast cereal, will it alter my future accountability in God's eyes? If such is not the case with marriage, God then must repudiate each and every marriage outside the evangelical Christian church. Not one ancient Greek, Egyptian, Roman, Babylonian, Aztec, Chinese marriage was ever validated in his eyes and every man and woman who was and is not of the Judeo-Christian faith was and is a fornicator, regardless of their marriage vows and enduring fidelity.

Pilate's wife who had the bad dreams about Jesus was not really Pilate's lawful wife in such a case - at least, not in God's eyes - as they had been married in a pagan ceremony, yet the Bible says that she was Pilate's [i]wife[/i].


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Paul Frederick West

 2007/6/2 12:59Profile
ontheway
Member



Joined: 2007/3/13
Posts: 7


 Re:

I posted the below scenario on a number of forums a while ago. The majority of replys were of the 'legal' marriage doesn't matter variety. I would appreciate some more replys from this forum.

ontheway

It is common for people here in Thailand to live together, as it is in the West. There are many believers in Church that are living together and have done so for many years. Some are active in church and even have positions of ministry. It is quite possible that they might have a wedding ceremony in front of the church but they do not get legally married. They do not sign a legal register at the county office and therefore the wife does not take the husband's name. The believers in their local body recognise them as a couple/family.

I would appreciate comments on the following questions, also scripture relevant to the topic would be good.

1. What does God think of their union?

2. Are they married?

 2007/6/2 13:11Profile
Nile
Member



Joined: 2007/3/28
Posts: 403
Raleigh, NC

 Re:

Quote:
It is common for people here in Thailand to live together, as it is in the West.



If it's anything like in the West, this is wrong. Those involved are fornicators and will not inherit the kingdom of heaven.

Quote:
There are many believers in Church that are living together and have done so for many years.



If this "living together" is the same living together that happens in the West, it is wrong. There is no question.

Quote:
Some are active in church and even have positions of ministry.



Entirely irrelevant.

Quote:
It is quite possible that they might have a wedding ceremony in front of the church but they do not get legally married. They do not sign a legal register at the county office and therefore the wife does not take the husband's name.



Why not? Unless they have good reason, such as Christian persecution, I believe this is wrong. Marriage is always a legal agreement if at all possible. God has made this clear in His word.

Quote:
The believers in their local body recognise them as a couple/family.



A "couple/family" is not a marriage. Even if the believers recognize them as married, I do not think this alone is grounds for marriage, unless governmental approval is not possible.

Nile

EDIT: Some of my comments were undeservedly harsh and I've removed/changed them.


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Matthew Miskiewicz

 2007/6/2 13:36Profile
tjservant
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Joined: 2006/8/25
Posts: 1658
Indiana USA

 Re:

I like the term you used...vows. Is a minister needed?


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TJ

 2007/6/2 13:39Profile
PaulWest
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Joined: 2006/6/28
Posts: 3405
Dallas, Texas

 Re:

Quote:
Is a minister needed?



When two children of God are united, this question is not really an issue. They get married in the church, usually with their Pastor officiating. But what happens when two irreligious people desire to marry? Can the marriage only be validated in God's eyes if a minister officiates? This, I think, would be a trite, weak, legalistic notion. Almost like a formula, akin to Roman Catholic infant baptism. What does the obligatory minister matter if God is out of the equation in their personal lives?

How can someone make a conscious covenantal vow under a God they do not know or have never met? They make vows of fidelity toward each other, and if a mention of accountability to the unknown God is included, so be it. But because they may not fully understand the seriousness of what they are entering into, does this automatically disqualify their lawful union in the eyes of God? When they consumate their marriage vows will they have committed fornication? Adultery, perhaps. But if neither were previously married...will their bed still be defiled? I believe that if the land they live in recognizes their marriage as legally and morally binding, and if the minister or judge has the state's authority to pronounce them "husband and wife", then God also records their vows and holds them legally to the covenant, even if they don't acknowledge Him or were married by an Elvis impersonator. The state recognizes it, and God also does, as he has established the legal custom of marriage in every land and tribe and tongue throughout history. Even genuine Christians who marry in the church are required by the state of Texas to go to the Justice of the Peace where you raise your hand and swear for the legal filing of your certificate.

We must obey the ordinances of men, put in place by God. I believe that if a couple refused to go to the JP after leaving their church, they would be in disobedience to God. Their marriage would remain unofficial. I'll leave it to you to decide whether God would also see it as such!

Thoughts? :-)

Brother Paul


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Paul Frederick West

 2007/6/2 14:14Profile
tjservant
Member



Joined: 2006/8/25
Posts: 1658
Indiana USA

 Re:

I think I’m starting to form an understanding. You can say you don’t believe in the devil, but still be one of his followers. Not believing in the Godly institution of marriage does not mean you have not entered into it.

Okay, what about the young couple (18 ish) that pledge their love to each other forever and ever before they sleep together. Have they entered into a “marriage”?


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TJ

 2007/6/2 14:42Profile
PaulWest
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Joined: 2006/6/28
Posts: 3405
Dallas, Texas

 Re:

Quote:
that pledge their love to each other forever and ever before they sleep together



"They gave each other a [i]pledge[/i]? Unheard of! Unthinkable!"

Sorry, TJ. Couldn't resist quoting Rev Tevye from "Fiddler on the Roof". One of my all-time favorites. Have you seen it?

Well, I think you know the answer to this question. If these two 18 year-olds (what is the significance with age, btw?) gave each other a "pledge" to love each other forever and ever, then they shouldn't have any problem waiting for marriage. Lust wants sex before marriage; love is honorable and pure and longsuffering and desires only the best for the other person. If the guy truly loved his girlfriend he would wait for marriage and honor and cherish her with a pure, undefiled bed. To have her before marriage is a selfish, sinful, defiling act - fully illegal - no matter how many earnest pledges they gave each other. Prisoners pledge and plea and swear oaths before judges on the bench. They sweat bullets when the gavel is in the judge's hand, and are, for the most part, deadly serious [i]at the time[/i] when they pledge to clean up their lives immediately if the judge deigns to grant them clemency. But what usually happens?

If they are granted clemency, they may fly straight for awhile, but the moment is over. The gut-wrentching, immediate danger is gone. People normally give pledges in heated of moments of desperation, only to inexorably cool off when they achieve what they pleaded for. God is no fool, and He'll never bend his standards pertaining to pre-marital carnal knowledge on account of the emotion-driven pledges of wicked men.

What do you think? Boyfriends and girlfriends give each other similar pledges a trillion times over. Even as I type this, some boy is giving a gullible girl a pledge right now and they will sleep together...and break up in a matter of months.

God's marital law is perfect and He is right and good. Any person who tries to enter into sexual relations otherwise is a thief and a robber, climbing over walls, eschewing the only narrow way leading to safe, blessed, carnal pleasure - which is to be found [b]only[/b] through the doorway of marriage.


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Paul Frederick West

 2007/6/2 15:13Profile
roadsign
Member



Joined: 2005/5/2
Posts: 3777


 Re:

Oops! It looks like another thread has snuck up, and my last post was meant to link to the other thread. Sorry.

Anyway, I noticed that no one has yet offered scriptures that define what God would accept as a proper procedure or circumstance by which a union is authentic. This is crucial! The absence of that “procedure” is the bases by which the partners are deemed fornicators - and thus judged as rebellious against God. But as I stated earlier, without clear indication of a divine LAW which is being violated, their accusers are no different than the Pharisees who accused the apostles of breaking the law (really THEIR law). I see that one poster even claims that those who don’t have a “proper” ceremony are hell-bound. Please offer clear scriptures to warrant such a verdict! Otherwise you are merely transferring your personal cultural values onto a foreign culture.

In my own search I was drawn to the following verses: (Notice that they tell us nothing other than that marriage is a fact of life. God and Jesus seem to acknowledge that. Maybe we should too.)

”For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark;” Matthew 24:38

Jesus replied, "The people of this age marry and are given in marriage.” Luke 20:34

There’s nothing here about what God would recognize as legit or not. From what I can see in scripture it seems that God is most concerned with how we (the saved ones) live out our daily lives TODAY. It’s not about how the relationship got started, but how it is lived out: fidelity, love, submission, etc etc. Let’s admit - among the early Christians, probably most of the unions did not begin from a godly base. Maybe they were united under the pagan deities. (I need to research this) And then, often one would become saved and the other not. The biblical response to that dilemma had more to do with relational than legal issues: ie – if the unbeliever accepted it or not. Please note the biblical RATIONAL: “God called us to live in PEACE” 1 Cor. 7:15

If I understand correctly, according to God, relational peace is a higher virtue than just sticking together for the “legal” sake of it. (no mention in the word about legal marriages)
This sounds scandalous, I know. But then, God’s ways are not our ways.

PS: I noticed also, that biblically, the partners must both consent – even the woman (not normal in most cultures – even some today) 1 Cor. 9:39 So, from that point of view the only union that is NOT valid (or acceptable to God AS a marriage) is where a partner is forced into it. (besides those where one is already joined to another)

Am I tracking right????
Diane


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Diane

 2007/6/2 15:43Profile
tjservant
Member



Joined: 2006/8/25
Posts: 1658
Indiana USA

 Re:

Quote:
gave each other a "pledge" to love each other forever and ever, then they shouldn't have any problem waiting for marriage.



Waiting for what marriage? What makes it a marriage? A minister that doesn’t matter? A document that means nothing? A ceremony? Are these things necessary in God’s eyes?


_________________
TJ

 2007/6/2 15:56Profile





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