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Joined: 2004/11/12
Posts: 55
Charleston, SC


Recently I was listening to a message by Ken Ham (not a Creation message) and he said something that I would probably agree with. He said, "I would rather that my children go to a secular university than for them to go to a compromising "Christian" college. Growing up in the South (bible belt so called), I have seen the curse of being a Christian in name only. College is a very difficult decision and I would say to be wary of the secular liberal arts schools and definiately run from the schools who call themselves Christians but do not teach the pure word of God.

I heard another message a few years ago where the guy said he would rather spend the money to buy his child a business and teach him how to run it for himself than for his child to go to a college to waste 150k 0n a psychology degree. I think so many times that we are conditioned in the way of the world and college is part of that conditioning.

Just my 2 cents and you definately have my prayers.



 2007/7/14 10:03Profile

Joined: 2007/1/31
Posts: 985


I Must stay being where God wants is far far better. Dear brother I joyed to hear such things. thank you for sharing. What a praise and wonderful thing to hear what our Lord is doing in your life. Our God is Good. How we should praise him even more. I have and will pray agian for you. for wisdom if you should go with this man. May you hear the voice of God. May he keep growing you in mighty ways. again thank you for sharing.

Lord God our KIng please humble and brake my brother more and more, father may you give him a hunger to seek your face away from everyone alone with you. May these time be rich and whole of joy. Father stire passion and vison and your wisdom into his heart.amen



 2007/7/15 23:23Profile

Joined: 2006/11/23
Posts: 397


I see your struggle concerning returning to College. I am currently wondering what I am going to "do" as I turn 18 in a few months (and have "graduated" already with a GED). My family, particularly my mother, really want me to go to a College (she's even said she'll pay for it), but God comes first above family. College seems pretty much off the table for many reasons, most of which have been discussed here in previous posts.

Luke 16:15, And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God.

What a statement! Education, money, etc., are all things the world esteems to a high degree. Art Katz said he'd neither wish his son to go to the far dark areas of Africa than go to a College. The professors indoctrinate you with their wisdom, and worldliness is esteemed. People say we should be a light there. We're supposed to be in the world, not of it! But they fail to recognize that 95% of people that go into College are very young in their walk and should definitely not, in my view, be going into such environments... I know many people that have gone to college straight from high school, where the world just sucked them straight up, who I remembered from bible studies at church etc., but now are partying constantly and God has little room in their lives now.

Jesus said,

Matthew 6:25 “Therefore I tell you, do not be anxious about your life, what you will eat or what you will drink, nor about your body, what you will put on. Is not life more than food, and the body more than clothing? 26 Look at the birds of the air: they neither sow nor reap nor gather into barns, and yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not of more value than they? 27 And which of you by being anxious can add a single hour to his span of life? 28 And why are you anxious about clothing? Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow: they neither toil nor spin, 29 yet I tell you, even Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these. 30 But if God so clothes the grass of the field, which today is alive and tomorrow is thrown into the oven, will he not much more clothe you, O you of little faith? 31 Therefore do not be anxious, saying, ‘What shall we eat?’ or ‘What shall we drink?’ or ‘What shall we wear?’ 32 For the Gentiles seek after all these things, and your heavenly Father knows that you need them all. 33 But seek first the kingdom of God and his righteousness, and all these things will be added to you.

34 “Therefore do not be anxious about tomorrow, for tomorrow will be anxious for itself. Sufficient for the day is its own trouble. (ESV)

So personally, I do not think I am going to go to a college unless the Lord were to really lay it upon my heart. I admit I am not sure of my future. What is it that I will be doing? How will I support my future family/wife (as she likely will stay at home and take care of the kids)-- these are all questions you are probably thinking too, and questions I have no answer for. I have no idea about my future save for it being with God. I like the idea of life together (i.e. true community, living with other brothers and sisters,) but only will I really consider that if the Lord places it upon my heart.

Ultimately, I know that if I walk with God, He will guide me, protect me, clothe me, and feed me. And that I need not be anxious about things like getting a college education. A moderately low paying job may seem to some to be an inadequate income to feed yourself and your family, but I think not. Most of the things we buy are unnecessary, or could be bought more cheaply, or we can live without easily, etc.

But who am I to speak, since I haven't even had a job (yet) nor have been married/had a family to feed! So, many of you will have more wisdom than I in this and more.


 2007/7/16 1:24Profile


I believe there are two ways to go about secular education, and both are ways of death. You must either crucify the old man and put on the new man in Christ Jesus once and for all, counting all things loss, and abdicating the ownership of your life, including things that the world considers good, but the Lord hates. Or you must put to death the new man created in Christ Jesus and put on the old man once and for all, and live as you please, tossed to and fro by the waves. Both ways are sincere. There is no middle ground, unless you are a hypocrite and try to incorporate both the old and the new in one. The Word is clear: "Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new" (2 Cor. 5:17). Only in a life of complete surrender (to God) is there transformation of our minds and freedom in the Spirit. But I believe it will cost us all things. If we are "conformed to this world," we can never be "transformed by the renewing of your mind" (Rom 12:2). The question is: whom do we want to put to death? Do we want to die so we can live or do we want to live so we can die?

Peace be with you,

 2007/8/21 11:38

Joined: 2003/11/23
Posts: 4499


Hi NotMe...

No offense, but I feel that this is quite a ridiculous take on the matter. You are educated on a "secular" basis EVERY DAY. Who taught you how to use the internet? Who taught you to read and write? Who taught you basic math? Who taught you how to interact with businesses, restaurants, banks, etc..? Who taught you to obey the laws of North Carolina? Who taught you how to drive (and who ultimately provided the information about how to drive)? Who taught you how to fix your plumbing? Who taught you how to work?

If such an "education" is so "evil," then why do you practice it everyday?

A formal "secular" college education is simply a means to earn a diploma. This helps find a better paying job so that a person can provide for his/her family. Such a diploma doesn't mean that a person has forsaken the faith or the convictions that they hold dear. I am completing my doctoral degree, and my "secular" education has served to strengthen my faith -- not weaken it.

I can tell that you are a very sincere and godly person. Be extremely careful (and prayerful) about warning someone about something as important as their life. We will all be held accountable for bad advice.



 2007/8/21 11:53Profile


I can tell that you are a very sincere and godly person. Be extremely careful (and prayerful) about warning someone about something as important as their life. We will all be held accountable for bad advice

I agree, brother. Accountable for the good and for the bad.

As for education, I think you have taken my words out of context. Is learning how to read or how to write evil? Or how to use the internet? Of course not. In this sense, education has its proper place. These are things that both the new and the old man can do (read, work, eat, etc.). The questions here is: how far can we go without going against the counsel of our conscience? If am I asked to familiarize myself with the law of the state I live in or to learn the process by how say a woody plant grows, it may be fine. But when I am asked to say that Christ is not the Son of God and my Lord, or act/talk/think/write as if He isn't, just to get by, then things get quite different. More so, if the new man cannot live out his life without putting it under a bushel, taking into consideration first the opinions and purposes of men, for his own good or benefit, then how can he walk in "the newness of life" at all? Why did Christians through the ages--even today--suffer that much persecution for refusing to conform to the ways of this world? I think this was the line of thought in which I was going.

A formal "secular" college education is simply a means to earn a diploma. This helps find a better paying job so that a person can provide for his/her family. [i]Such a diploma doesn't mean that a person has forsaken the faith or the convictions that they hold dear.[/i]

I see nothing wrong with a Christian getting a diploma or working to provide for his/her family. But, still, I need to make a distinction. Consider Pilate from the passage in Luke 23:

[i]20 Pilate, therefore, wishing to release Jesus, again called out to them. 21 But they shouted, saying, “Crucify Him, crucify Him!”
22 Then he said to them the third time, “Why, what evil has He done? I have found no reason for death in Him. I will therefore chastise Him and let Him go.”
23 But they were insistent, demanding with loud voices that He be crucified. And the voices of these men and of the chief priests prevailed.[e] 24 So Pilate gave sentence that it should be as they requested. 25 And he released to them the one they requested, who for rebellion and murder had been thrown into prison; but he delivered Jesus to their will.[/i]

Matthew's Gospel, chapter 27, reads in verse 24:
[i]When Pilate saw that he could not prevail at all, but rather that a tumult was rising, he took water and washed his hands before the multitude, saying, “I am innocent of the blood of this just Person. You see to it.”[/i]

Here was a man who knew what was right and didn't do it. He knew the truth and didn't obey it. How many times in our walk have we had to keep quiet or say what we don't think so we don't lose our status? How many times have we had to act like "mere men" to fit in a place which opposes our God so we don't suffer persecution? I know I've done this thousands of times. Given in to pressure from parents, friends, teachers, etc., under the banner of "seeking safety in the counsel of many." Of course, this doesn't mean that we should try on purpose to offend people and say things that we know they will reject, so we can be "faithful witnesses." Only the Spirit of God can bear witness to the truth.

I have been wrestling much with the issue of keeping my faith in the educational context lately. The struggle's shaken the very depths of who I am. Alternating periods of "I can't do this any more, Lord, it's killing me" and "I am going to give it a try this time and do what they want me to do, their way, for the sake of my family, finances, my education." But I haven't been able to accommodate those two modes or persons at all. Usually everything end with many tears, repentance, and starting the very same fight, unarmed and unprepared, again and again.


 2007/8/21 12:43

Joined: 2006/8/25
Posts: 1658
Indiana USA


But when I am asked to say that Christ is not the Son of God and my Lord, or act/talk/think/write as if He isn't, just to get by, then things get quite different.

How many times have we had to act like "mere men" to fit in a place which opposes our God so we don't suffer persecution?

I attend a liberal arts Christian university. I was called here. It is my mission field. It is a dark place. I have been asked to stay after class by most of my teachers to be questioned about my responses to certain topics. I have confronted erroneous teachings whether they are made by students or teachers. I have chosen to not attend certain classes/events, and walked out of others. I’m sure this has affected my relationships and grades, but denying the Truth and/or going against my conscience is not an option.

I am not here to earn a degree (although that may happen), I’m here for Him. I take this very seriously. I must be careful to be salt and light. I'm not a good example if I compromise.

I may not be what you would consider popular, but many students and a few teachers have sought me out in order to get my opinion or thoughts on particular subjects. One teacher even changed their curriculum mid semester after we had a very lengthy discussion.

I am promised persecution. I knew it would happen when I counted the cost of coming to Christ. I have put my hand to the plow and will not look back. I'm a long way from perfect, but I am striving.

God will deal with the consequences of a life fully yielded to him.

I keep this in my Bible and read it often.

[url=]Fellowship of the Unashamed[/url]


 2007/8/21 14:18Profile

Joined: 2006/8/17
Posts: 286


I wonder how a brilliant man like Ravi Zacharias would respond to this thread?

Leonardo Santana

 2007/8/21 15:14Profile


Dear TJ,

As if I am reading about myself in your story. Maybe I have not been as bold as you have. But I have spoken up many times and walked out of meetings and classrooms on other occasions. As much as I have walked out of churches and rebuked brothers in the faith about their disorderly walk. On occasions the Lord has given me boldness to speak before hundreds of people; in others, I have been afraid to speak before one person. Many times I've met amazing opposition, especially from Christians; many times people have been quite humbled and willing to listen to me. In my weakness though, the Lord has been glorified. This I know by the witness of His Word, Providence, Holy Spirit, my conscience also bearing witness. Other times, in the zeal of my flesh, I have done much damage to His cause as well, for which I have suffered the consequences.

For me, too, brother, the only reason for living, and thus for being at my liberal arts college,(although at times I fail) is to glorify the Lord Jesus and to bring people to Him. Nothing else. I cannot care less about getting a degree or honor from men (for which my parents are about ready to disown me); this world is fading away with everything in it.

I am also only a couple of courses away from graduation... I am taking one of them for the third time now (my major is English); and as things look now, I don't think I'll pass it. Under much pressure from parents--and about everyone around me--I decided to return this fall and give it a try. However, I am again trying to stand in two boats at the same time: confessing and denying Christ. A lot of times I have denied Him and then pacified my conscience, and uttered something about freedom in the Spirit and being under grace, etc., to excuse my disobedience, until I ended up in sin and depression, then returning to Him, and counting the cost of following Him again. Vicious cycle. I even willingly failed a couple of classes last spring because I couldn't do the work... or rather say what I think in the assignment without debunking the assignment itself.

I believe a time came when I had to decide which thing was more important: my education and prosperity, or the will of God (regardless of whether His will was that I left or stayed in school). I decided to leave, came back, decided to leave again, and came back again. Had no peace, and still have no peace when I think of ways I can make it through... for all of them seem to include a second kind of death, acquiescence to the wisdom of the world, and willful ignorance to the witness of the Spirit.

Some brothers say I am taking things to the extreme; looking too deep into things; spiritualizing everything. But I know that if I let go of this truth and that revelation, just to fit in, I am no better than dead and compromised, and I will never find peace. For I believe only a person who has nothing to lose can be free in the hope that Christ has given us.

Art Katz talked about a church that has an especial zeal for the glory of God. I pray that we may be such, whatever it takes! May we be not too afraid to enter into the answering of that prayer!

In Him,

 2007/8/21 15:23


Thanks for that testimony Tjservant.

 2007/8/21 15:45

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