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 Romans 6:1-14

[u]Romans 6[/u]

1What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?

2God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

3Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

4Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

5For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:

6Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

7For he that is dead is freed from sin.

8Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:

9Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.

10For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.

11Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

12Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.

13Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.

14For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

_______________


My question is - what does it mean to be 'dead to sin'?

 2007/5/23 11:46
InTheLight
Member



Joined: 2003/7/31
Posts: 2736
Phoenix, Arizona USA

 Re: Romans 6:1-14

Quote:
My question is - what does it mean to be 'dead to sin'?



You may find this item helpful, it is from Watchman Nee's book [i]The Normal Christian Life[/i]...
The Divine Way of Deliverance

God clearly intends that this consideration should lead to our practical deliverance from sin. Paul makes this quite plain when he opens chapter 6 of his letter with the question: “Shall we continue in sin?” His whole being recoils at the very suggestion. “God forbid!”, he exclaims. How could a holy God be satisfied to have unholy, sin-fettered children? And so “how shall we any longer live therein?” (Romans 6:1,2). God has surely therefore made adequate provision that we should be set free from sin’s dominion.

But here is our problem. We were born sinners; how then can we cut off our sinful heredity? Seeing that we were born in Adam, how can we get out of Adam? Let me say at once, the Blood cannot take us out of Adam. There is only one way. Since we came in by birth we must go out by death. To do away with our sinfulness we must do away with our life. Bondage to sin came by birth; deliverance from sin comes by death—and it is just this way of escape that God has provided. Death is the secret of emancipation. “We... died to sin” (Romans 6:2).

But how can we die? Some of us have tried very hard to get rid of this sinful life, but we have found it most tenacious. What is the way out? It is not by trying to kill ourselves, but by recognizing that God has dealt with us in Christ. This is summed up in the apostle’s next statement: “All we who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death” (Romans 6:3).

But if God has dealt with us ‘in Christ Jesus’ then we have got to be in Him for this to become effective, and that now seems just as big a problem. How are we to ‘get into’ Christ? Here again God comes to our help. We have in fact no way of getting in, but, what is more important, we need not try to get in, for we are in. What we could not do for ourselves God has done for us. He has put us into Christ. Let me remind you of I Corinthians 1:30. I think that is one of the best verses of the whole New Testament: ‘Ye are in Christ’. How? “Of him (that is, ‘of God’) are ye in Christ.” Praise God! it is not left to us either to devise a way of entry or to work it out. We need not plan how to get in. God has planned it; and He has not only planned it but He has also performed it. ‘Of him are ye in Christ Jesus’. We are in; therefore we need not try to get in. It is a Divine act, and it is accomplished.

Now if this is true, certain things follow. In the illustration from Hebrews 7 which we considered above we saw that ‘in Abraham’ all Israel—and therefore Levi who was not yet born—offered tithes to Melchizedek. They did not offer separately and individually, but they were in Abraham when he offered, and his offering included all his seed. This, then, is a true figure of ourselves as ‘in Christ’. When the Lord Jesus was on the Cross all of us died—not individually, for we had not yet been born—but, being in Him, we died in Him. “One died for all, therefore all died” (2 Cor. 5:14). When He was crucified all of us were crucified.

Many a time when preaching in the villages of China one has to use very simple illustrations for deep Divine truth. I remember once I took up a small book and put a piece of paper into it, and I said to those very simple ones, ‘Now look carefully. I take a piece of paper. It has an identity of its own, quite separate from this book. Having no special purpose for it at the moment I put it into the book. Now I do something with the book. I post it to Shanghai. I do not post the paper, but the paper has been put into the book. Then where is the paper? Can the book go to Shanghai and the paper remain here? Can the paper have a separate destiny from the book? No! Where the book goes the paper goes. If I drop the book in the river the paper goes too, and if I quickly take it out again I recover the paper also. Whatever experience the book goes through the paper goes through with it, for it is in the book.’

“Of him are ye in Christ Jesus.” The Lord God Himself has put us in Christ, and in His dealing with Christ God has dealt with the whole race. Our destiny is bound up with His. What He has gone through we have gone through, for to be ‘in Christ’ is to have been identified with Him in both His death and resurrection. He was crucified: then what about us? Must we ask God to crucify us? Never! When Christ was crucified we were crucified; and His crucifixion is past, therefore ours cannot be future. I challenge you to find one text in the New Testament telling us that our crucifixion is in the future. All the references to it are in the Greek aorist, which is the ‘once-for-all’ tense, the ‘eternally past’ tense. (See: Romans 6:6; Galatians 2:20; 5:24; 6:14). And just as no man could ever commit suicide by crucifixion, for it were a physical impossibility to do so, so also, in spiritual terms, God does not require us to crucify ourselves. We were crucified when He was crucified, for God put us there in Him. That we have died in Christ is not merely a doctrinal position, it is an eternal fact.


_________________
Ron Halverson

 2007/5/23 12:39Profile
JaySaved
Member



Joined: 2005/7/11
Posts: 1131
Kentucky

 Re:

Quote:
My question is - what does it mean to be 'dead to sin'?



Short answer:
It is another way of saying that we are not slaves to sin. Sin does not control us.

 2007/5/23 13:02Profile









 Re:

Quote:

Short answer:
It is another way of saying that we are not slaves to sin. Sin does not control us.



If sin is dead to us, shouldn't it not bother us?

If we are dead to sin, why do we still sin?

 2007/5/23 14:22









 Re:

Are people question dodging? Or just all as uncertain as me?

 2007/5/24 5:59









 Re:

Quote:
If sin is dead to us, shouldn't it not bother us?



Quote:
If we are dead to sin, why do we still sin?



Those are same questions that I asked, and I think any honest believer will ask those same questions.

First, Romans 6 must be read as a declaration of who we are in Christ, not as an explanation of our experience.

He is answering the question: "Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?"

"God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

My question to Paul then is..."What do you mean I am dead to sin...I still sin...I still wrestle with this nature...what do you mean?

He responds, "Know ye not? Don't you know?

He goes on to declare that Christ's reality is our reality. All that He is we are because we are in Him.

Remember, forget you experience up to now. God calls those things which are not as though they are. God DECLARED Abraham, a Father of many nations, even while Sarah's womb was still barren.

Romans 6 1 - 10 - A declaration of who we are in Christ.

Romans 6:11 - 13 - How we should now walk BECAUSE of our reality in Christ. The declaration must come before the experience, and the experience does not nullify the declaration. (if we struggle it does not change who we are in Christ)

Romans 6:14 - Another declaration of who we are in Christ.


 2007/5/24 6:48
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
I challenge you to find one text in the New Testament telling us that our crucifixion is in the future. All the references to it are in the Greek aorist, which is the ‘once-for-all’ tense, the ‘eternally past’ tense.


In the interests of strict accuracy, there is at least one exception to this and I think it reveals an important truth, but I don't want to highjak the thread.[u]I have been crucified[/u] with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me. (Galatians 2:20 NKJV)This is the [url=http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/c.pl?book=Gal&chapter=2&verse=20&version=KJV#20]perfect tense[/url] which could be translated 'was and still is'.

Perfect Tense
The basic thought of the perfect tense is that the progress of an action has been completed and the results of the action are continuing on, in full effect. In other words, the progress of the action has reached its culmination and the finished results are now in existence. Unlike the English perfect, which indicates a completed past action, the Greek perfect tense indicates the continuation and present state of a completed past action.

For example, Galatians 2:20 should be translated "I am in a present state of having been crucified with Christ," indicating that not only was I crucified with Christ in the past, but I am existing now in that present condition.
"...having been rooted and grounded in love," Eph 3:17 This quotation comes from a useful page of NT Greek definitions, to be found [url=http://www.ntgreek.org/learn_nt_greek/verbs1.htm]here.[/url]


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2007/5/24 7:05Profile









 Re:

Quote:

Mahoney wrote:
Quote:
If sin is dead to us, shouldn't it not bother us?



Quote:
If we are dead to sin, why do we still sin?



Those are same questions that I asked, and I think any honest believer will ask those same questions.

First, Romans 6 must be read as a declaration of who we are in Christ, not as an explanation of our experience.

He is answering the question: "Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?"

"God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

My question to Paul then is..."What do you mean I am dead to sin...I still sin...I still wrestle with this nature...what do you mean?

He responds, "Know ye not? Don't you know?

He goes on to declare that Christ's reality is our reality. All that He is we are because we are in Him.

Remember, forget you experience up to now. God calls those things which are not as though they are. God DECLARED Abraham, a Father of many nations, even while Sarah's womb was still barren.

Romans 6 1 - 10 - A declaration of who we are in Christ.

Romans 6:11 - 13 - How we should now walk BECAUSE of our reality in Christ. The declaration must come before the experience, and the experience does not nullify the declaration. (if we struggle it does not change who we are in Christ)

Romans 6:14 - Another declaration of who we are in Christ.





Thanks Mahoney, that would make sense.

So the act of being dead to sin is actually an ongoing process, one which will be completed when we die?

 2007/5/24 8:02
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
So the act of being dead to sin is actually an ongoing process, one which will be completed when we die?


How would an 'act' be on 'ongoing process'? ;-)

We are using many terms here which are not really synonyms. This why I pointed out the difference in Gal 2:20. Paul is not speaking about 'the old man' in Galatians but is speaking about 'I'.

In terms of the 'old man' (not the old self or old nature, as translated by most new versions) the necessary work is a single act of crucifixion. That will render the 'old man' non-operative. The word 'destroyed' would better have been translated 'made non-effective'. The word is a key word to understanding what happens here. It is the word [url=http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/words.pl?book=Rom&chapter=6&verse=6&strongs=2673&page=1&flag_full=1]katargeO[/url] which is translated variously in the KJV as destroy 5, do away 3, abolish 3, cumber 1, loose 1, cease 1, fall 1, deliver 1, misc 11; It is used 27 times in the New Testament. The URL above will help you to get a good feel of how the word is used. It does not mean annihilation, in the sense of some ceasing to exist. It means 'neutralising' in the sense of making something non-functional.

Greek builds up words like German. 'ergeO' would mean 'to work'. a-ergeO means 'not working'. The prefix 'kata' often means thoroughly, so kata-a-ergeO (or katergeO) means to cause something to be 'thoroughly non-functional' We haven't defined 'the old man' yet but whatever it is is rendered 'thoroughly non functional' to those who are 'united with Christ in the baptism into death'.

Individuals do not have 'an old man' in the sense that they have a soul; this is 'our old man', we share this single entity. I would suggest that 'our old man' is the human race under the wrong head. It came into being as a result of Adam's sin (not Eve's) and all, by first birth, are 'in Adam'. As soon as a man or woman is 'united with Christ in the baptism into death' the effects of Christ's death are made actual for that man. It is not that 'the old man' has been once and for all 'co-crucified' but that 'OUR (we who are united with Christ by the baptism into death) old man has been rendered completely non-functional. It no longer has any power over me; I am ‘dead’ to it.

That doesn’t mean that Satan is destroyed, but it does mean that I am no longer connected to him through Adam’s disobedience. Because I am no longer under its power, I can NOW (only when I have been united with Christ in his baptism into death) work on the basis that I am ‘dead’ to the old entity. I can only ‘reckon’ on this if it is real ie if I have actually been ‘united with Christ through the baptism into death. A whole new way of living is now possible to me.

The 'I' referred to in Galatians is not the same as ‘our old man’ but is Paul’s himself. The danger is that having been freed from sin we might choose to live an life of independence; but this would be folly. Paul has been doing some ‘calculating’ some ‘reckoning’. for the love of the Christ doth constrain us, having judged thus: that if one for all died, then the whole died, and for all he died, that those living, no more to themselves may live, but to him who died for them, and was raised again. (2Corinthians 5:14-15 YNG) This is the way he judges things… he has no more right to his life than a dead man has to his. He has no right to himself, nor to live to himself. He has settled this issue, long ago.

However, although he settled the issue, long ago, he will need to ‘live’ the kind of crucified life that Christ lived and died. Christ, says Paul, did not please himself. (Rom 15:3) The life that Paul is ‘living’ in Galatians 2 is the same kind of life and this IS a process. There is no ‘process’ to the crucifixion of the ‘our old man’; that was ‘once for all’ - Aorist Tense but there is a continuing process that ‘began in the past and continues to the present (perfect tense).

In terms of Christ’s cross, and by its effectual power his ‘union with Christ by the baptism into death’ has ‘finished’ the old entity and ‘our old man’ is no longer effective. That was once and for all and we cannot make any contribution to it. , but in terms of his daily personal life, he is taking us his (not Christ’s) cross daily. He is ‘living’ the life a crucified man.

Crucifixion, btw, was only ever carried on on ‘non-persons’ who the Roman system judged as having no rights. Paul, lives as a non-person and daily rejects his rights to himself.


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2007/5/24 9:01Profile
ADisciple
Member



Joined: 2007/2/3
Posts: 835
Alberta, Canada

 Re: Romans 6:1-14

Quote:

richardf wrote:


My question is - what does it mean to be 'dead to sin'?



I think it means exactly that: dead to sin. Having absolutely no ability to be moved by or influenced by sin, just as a dead man has no ability to respond to anything whatever.

I have approached the Scriptures in days past with the thought that if I could just "understand" then what I read would become real in my life and experience. If the "light bulb" would just go on, there, now I've got it.

That doesn't work. As Mahoney said on an earlier post, these Scriptures are an explanation of who we are in Christ, and not necessarily what we have in our experience.

Mere understanding does not make what is written real in my experience. I can understand it very well, and still find a great gulf fixed between the Scriptures and my experience.

So in more recent years it has helped me greatly to realize that the New Covenant is Christ's work to mediate to you and me; it's not our work to try to get it to work.

Our Lord Jesus Christ is seated at the Right Hand of Power with "a more excellent ministry," and all power in Heaven and earth to mediate that Covenant to God's people. He will not fail; He will be faithful, as also Moses was with the Old Covenant.

So to me the greatest need we have is to give the Holy Spirit His Lordship in all things. For He is the One sent from the Throne to write The Covenant into our lives.

So now, when I read, I seek to do more than just try to understand. Now I say, Lord, are You reading this with me? Do you see what it says here? Do You see what You need to do in my life? It says here, "...dead to sin... alive unto God." Make that real in my life. Mediate that into my life, Lord Jesus. I want to co-operate. I know that means I must give Your Holy Spirit full sway in my life. So, grant me the grace, help me become totally surrendered to Your Spirit, who takes of what is Yours, and makes it real in my life.

AD


_________________
Allan Halton

 2007/5/27 0:12Profile





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