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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Why did the apostles have to come down?

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running2win
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Joined: 2007/5/15
Posts: 231
Bowmansville Penssylvania USA

 Re:

Quote:
Would you tell us which time you referenced in your post Jeff, thanks Eddie



I feel kind of ignorant asking this brother, but to which time of what were you refering?


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Jeff Mollman

 2007/5/22 11:23Profile
philologos
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Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
I believe it's wrong to say it's "receiving the Holy Spirit" because it's clear in scripture that you receive the Holy Spirit at salvation. There is not a single saved person who has not received the Holy Spirit.


Suppose we start from the other end of this issue...“But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.” (Romans 8:9 NKJV)Many use this verse to prove the idea that all 'saved' people have the Spirit but this is not what Paul says. He starts from the other end of the issue and says "whoever does not have the Spirit is not Christ's". This may not necessary be a reversible equation. Paul's starting point is 'people who have the Spirit' not people who are saved; this is a serious challenge to much traditional evangelical theology but I think we have to face it if we want honest exegesis.

The question then is not "do all saved people have the Spirit" but what does it mean "to have the Spirit"? As far as I can see every instance of 'having the Spirit' in post-Pentecost narrative is of a conscious event. The 'believers' in Samaria had not had a 'conscious event' of receiving the Spirit. So, in the terms of Rom 8:9, were they Christ's?

If you're not using your helmit, Robert...?


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Ron Bailey

 2007/5/22 11:24Profile
PreachParsly
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Joined: 2005/1/14
Posts: 2164
Arkansas

 Re:

Quote:
I believe it's wrong to say it's "receiving the Holy Spirit" because it's clear in scripture that you receive the Holy Spirit at salvation. There is not a single saved person who has not received the Holy Spirit.



Are you talking about being saved from sin or justified? Or do you equate the two?

Just asking questions... :-D

EDIT: I didn't realize Ron had quoted the same thing from you Krispy... Sorry!


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Josh Parsley

 2007/5/22 11:34Profile
JaySaved
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Joined: 2005/7/11
Posts: 1131
Kentucky

 Re:

Krispy wrote:

Quote:
Simple... this was to show Peter and John that even the Gentiles could be saved, and receive the Holy Spirit.

This is why Paul wrote that tongues were a sign "unto the Jews". Why? Because the Jews had a hard time believing that God could save Gentiles. So He prooved it by showing them that they received the Holy Spirit.

However, at this point (2007 AD), that sign for the Jews is not necessary.

Fact is, since that time... you receive the Holy Spirit at the moment you are saved. This is taught in scripture. You can not be saved and not have the Holy Spirit. I've seen people even on this forum say "I'm saved, but now I'm seeking the Holy Spirit"... well, the truth is, if you dont have the Holy Spirit... you are not saved.



Well said brother.

I am reminded of 2 Cor. 13:5 "Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?"




 2007/5/22 12:03Profile
philologos
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Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
I believe it's wrong to say it's "receiving the Holy Spirit" because it's clear in scripture that you receive the Holy Spirit at salvation. There is not a single saved person who has not received the Holy Spirit.


I think this has been quoted fairly frequently in this thread. I wonder if someone will now tell me where the scripture says that you receive the Holy Spirit at salvation? :-)


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Ron Bailey

 2007/5/22 13:56Profile
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Joined: 2005/7/11
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 Re:

Philologos wrote:

Quote:
I wonder if someone will now tell me where the scripture says that you receive the Holy Spirit at salvation?



You might be using the word 'salvation' in a way other than the moment of regeneration, but if not what do you say about these verses?

Romans 8:14-17 (NKJV)

"14For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. 15 For you did not receive the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption by whom we cry out, “Abba, Father.” 16 The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, 17 and if children, then heirs—heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him, that we may also be glorified together."

Are we to conclude that the 'receiving of the spirit' in this context is something other than the moment we believe?

Ephesians 1:11-14 (NKJV)

"11 In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will, 12 that we who first trusted in Christ should be to the praise of His glory.
13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory."

Does verse 13 not clearly say that a person who hears the word of truth and believes is 'sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise who is the guarantee of our inheritance'?

I don't understand where you are going with this Ron.

 2007/5/22 14:35Profile
PassingThru
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Joined: 2005/5/7
Posts: 175


 Re: Why did the apostles have to come down?

LittleGift

Quote:

Why didn't they receive the Spirit until the apostles came? Why not when Phillip prayed for them? He was obviously a man of faith and moved in the power of the Holy Spirit.



I think John and Peter had the specific power(anointing/capacity) to pray for other to receive (the baptism in) the Holy Ghost, while Philip did not.
[color=000099]
1Co 12:4 Now there are [b]diversities of gifts[/b], but the same Spirit.
1Co 12:5 And there are [b]differences of administrations[/b], but the same Lord.
1Co 12:6 And there are [b]diversities of operations[/b], but it is the same God which worketh all in all.
[/color]
I think it pleases God to have the body of Christ made up of different individuals with different capacities all 'doing their part' under the guidance of the Holy Ghost.

PassingThru

 2007/5/22 15:17Profile
PassingThru
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Joined: 2005/5/7
Posts: 175


 Re:

JaySaved

Quote:

Does verse 13 not clearly say that a person who hears the word of truth and believes is 'sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise who is the guarantee of our inheritance'?



The KJV is more suggestive that the 'sealing' occurs after belief, not exactly at the same moment :-
[color=000099]
Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that Holy Spirit of promise,
[/color]
If all who believe are sealed, wouldn't it be fair to say by the structure of the verse, that all who heard the truth also believed?

Perhaps the verse is merely summarizing the spiritual state of the letter's audience.

PassingThru

 2007/5/22 15:30Profile
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Joined: 2005/7/11
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Kentucky

 Re:

Quote:
Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that Holy Spirit of promise,

Perhaps the verse is merely summarizing the spiritual state of the letter's audience.



Of course. But Paul is not only summarizing their spiritual state, but is summarizing all Christians spiritual state.

If a person has trusted in Christ, this happening after they heard the gospel, then after the person believes, he/she is sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise.

What we cannot take away from this verse is the belief that the 'sealing of the Spirit' is a second work of blessing that can only be obtained if the person truly seeks after it.

Looking at the text, we see belief then sealing. What we also gather from this verse is that all who believe are sealed. (I say this because Paul says "ye were sealed" Ye being all who believed and trusted.)

It is wrong to say that all who hear believe because Paul is not talking to all who heard the gospel, he is only talking to all who believe the gospel.


 2007/5/22 15:43Profile









 Re:

Back to the original post by Jeanette:

Quote:
Why didn't they receive the Spirit until the apostles came? Why not when Phillip prayed for them? He was obviously a man of faith and moved in the power of the Holy Spirit.

The reason why Peter and John were summuned to Samaria is because Peter had the keys of the Kingdom.
Quote:
Matthew 16:19 And I will give unto thee[Peter] the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

He was the one who had the Keys to unlock the door to the Jews at Pentecost, the Samaritians in Samaria, and to the gentiles at Cornelius house. After the gentiles were filled, the attention is drawn away from Peter and is turned to Paul.

I hope this helps a little in your studies.

 2007/5/22 15:59





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