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chrisi4ever6
Member



Joined: 2010/9/29
Posts: 1


 Re:

Roman,
You said "I have a question, why did Jesus did not tell to the Samaritan woman (John 4) to separate from the man she is living with who is not her husband?"

He did,He told her to Sin no More..that covers everything including her Separation with this man..This should be obvious!

 2010/9/29 22:06Profile
savannah
Member



Joined: 2008/10/30
Posts: 2042


 Re: Marriage & Divorce +


One poster has written,"There has to be a liberty of conscience here."

God has not left this issue so ambiguous as to lead us to such confusion as the statement above implies.

This 'liberty of conscience' (a.k.a. 'christian liberty) mentality has made a broad way for sin to enter and lodge in many hearts and minds. God is not neutral on this matter, as He is not so on many other matters which men would like us to believe that He is.

This following quote from the same poster is from the mouth of the subtle serpent...BELIEVE IT NOT!!!

"It is truly the Spirit of New Testament Christianity. He appeals for a liberty of conscience. This means that we allow people to come to their own conclusions."

There's a Spirit of Truth and a sssspirit of error.

God's rule(measure)is His infallible Word, which is interpreted by His Spirit He has given His people.

Before you read further or listen to anything or anyone(including myself) on this matter,keep this following truth uppermost in your heart and mind and meditate upon it, as much as it is in agreement with the Mind-Heart-Word of God.

MARRIAGE WAS MADE FOR MAN NOT MAN FOR MARRIAGE.

Just as the Sabbath was made for man and not man for the Sabbath. It was for our benefit and to serve man's good. We were not made for the Sabbath. May we not be the slaves of,and have as our Master,either the Sabbath or Marriage.

And now, for the edification and instruction of the Israel of God I offer this message by a man who meets the Scriptural qualifications of an elder. He has been married to his one and only beloved wife for many years. He has 10 children. All of whom have been homeschooled and are professing christians. His daughters have all been taught the Scriptural instruction of being keepers at home. His daughters have all been under the protection of their father at home, until the father has given them in marriage to a man who has proved himself worthy of his daughters' hand in marriage. His permission was granted to court his daughter and consequently to marry her.

He is a man of integrity as well as a gracious man.
He is a humble man as well as a scholarly (Greek teacher)man who is well learned in the Scriptures.

http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?SID=6230484251

PreachParsly says, "I have a quick question. I'm sorry if it's already been addressed. What is a divorce?"

May I offer the following message found on sermonaudio:

http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?SID=313081354462

And may I also offer the following article which addresses the question 'what is divorce', and consequently whether there is legitimacy(Scriptural lawfulness)for a new covenant of marriage.

On Remarriage After Divorce
by John Owen

It is confessed by all who accept Scripture as their authority that adultery is a just and sufficient cause for divorce between married persons. However, a difference of opinion exists as to the extent of the effects of this divorce. Is the divorce a full separation from the bond and mutual obligations of marriage, or is it only a separation from the mutual obligations of marriage?

Some teach that divorce consists in an absolute dissolution and termination of the bonds of marriage and thereby allows the innocent party the freedom to marry again.

Others teach that this divorce is only a separation "from table and marriage bed" and therefore the divorce does not actually dissolve or terminate the marriage relation. Instead, it merely relinquishes one from the duty of providing physically and sexually for their spouse.

I am convinced of the first opinion. I will show that the second view is unthinkable and unscriptural because of its many weaknesses and also give three reasons why the first view is true.

The second view is not true for the following reasons:

First, this divorce "from table and marriage bed" is not a true divorce according to the light of Scripture and the law of nature. This position is a late invention in the history of mankind. Even those in the Roman church that assert it is true grant that in the Old Testament and in other ancient cultures divorce was always a termination of the marriage bond. Yet the moral duties and God-honoring relations of the Old Testament are not abrogated by the New Testament, rather their motives and purposes are more clearly defined.

Roman Catholics come to this position because of their unbiblical view that marriage is a Christian sacrament and therefore since it carries the status of sacrament it is indissolvable. But if this is true, then marriage should only take place among believers and have no authority over non-believers and this is clearly not true. Marriage is a creation ordinance and thus is to be practiced by all mankind, not merely believers.

Secondly, a divorce which remains perpetually "from table and marriage bed" is hurtful and destructive to mankind. If this were true it would establish a new state of being, unknown to Scripture. In this new state a man would lawfully be obligated to have a wife and simultaneously obligated to not have a wife. Every man that is capable of marriage is and must be in one (and only one) of these two situations--whether he would like to be or not. God does not call any man into the state where he is bound by conscience to not receive back the adulterous partner and at the same time to not take another as his wife due to this divorce.

This unnatural and unlawful and unknown condition may--and probably will--cast a man under a necessity of sinning. This is what I mean when I say that this view is hurtful and destructive to mankind and to righteousness. For suppose that a man doesn't have the gift of celibacy. If this is the case then it is the express will of God that he should marry for his relief. Yet, if he does marry, he has sinned; and if he doesn't marry, he will sin.

Thirdly, this view is unlawful. For if the bond of marriage remains then the relation still continues. This relational bond is the foundation of all mutual duties and obligations in marriage. Therefore, while the bond remains, no one can lawfully refrain from carrying out the proper duties of marriage, nor prohibit their performance. In marriage, each partner has certain duties and obligations to each other that they are required to perform so that each partner is not their own, but one another's. Thus each partner may claim the duties of marriage from the other partner lawfully. They may separate for a time by mutual consent and this may hinder the actual execution of certain marital duties for a time. But to make such an obligation to one another completely void while at the same time the marriage relation continues is against the law of nature and the law of God.

Fourthly, the very light of nature and common grace among the nations never pointed to this kind of divorce. Marriage is a creation ordinance given by God and is thus practiced by all mankind. No mere man would ever have ordained such a relation. Yet in all of history there is never any mention made of a divorce that is merely "from table and marriage bed." The case has always been that those who justly divorce their wives might marry another. Some cultures, like the ancient Greeks and Romans, even allowed the husband to kill the adulteress. This was later changed by the Romans, but the offense still remained a capital offense. In these cases, divorce took place to purposely allow the innocent person the freedom to marry again. Therefore, the view that divorce is merely "from table and marriage bed"--from the duties and obligations of marriage alone and not from the bond of it--is a false view.

The first view--that divorce absolutely dissolves the marriage bond and allows for remarriage--is the true view. There are three reasons for this.

First, that which dissolves the structure (union) of marriage and thus destroys all the practices (obligations) of marriage does therefore dissolve the bond of marriage. If you take away the inherent structure and purpose and end of any moral relation, the relation ceases to be. And this is what is done by adultery and therefore calls for divorce. For the structure of marriage consists in this: The two persons become "one flesh" (Gen. 2:24; Matt. 19:6). But this union is dissolved by adultery, for the adulteress becomes one flesh with the adulterer (1 Cor. 6:16). Thus she is no longer one flesh in union with her husband, but rather she absolutely breaks the bond and covenant of marriage. And when she breaks the bond she also absolutely destroys all the obligations and duties which accompany that bond. For how can one talk of a bond that exists if at the same time it is broken? Is that still a bond? Or how can one speak of a bond that doesn't bind? But isn't this what the second view teaches?

Secondly, if the innocent party of a divorce is not at liberty to marry again then two things ensue:

1. The innocent party is deprived of their freedom by the sin of another. This is against nature. This gives the wicked great power over the righteous for every wicked and unfaithful spouse then has it in their power to deprive their partner of their natural rights and freedoms.

2. The innocent party, if not allowed to remarry, is exposed to sin and judgment because of the unfaithfulness of another. Our Savior allowed divorce in the case of adultery as an option to the innocent party to allow for their liberty, advantage, and relief. But if one is not allowed to remarry, this liberty would be no liberty at all, but would only prove a snare and a yoke to them. For if one does not have the gift of celibacy, then he is exposed to sin and judgment.

Thirdly, our blessed Savior gives express direction in the case of adultery. "And I say unto you, whoever shall divorce his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, commits adultery" (Matt. 19:9). Thus it is evident and is the plain sense of the words that the opposite is also true: "He who puts away his wife for fornication and marries another does not commit adultery." According to Jesus, the bond of marriage is in the case of adultery dissolved, and the person that puts away his wife is at liberty to marry again. While Jesus teaches against divorcing the wife and marrying again for any cause whatsoever, the exception of adultery allows the husband to both divorce and remarry.

Every exception is a particular case that is contradictory to the general rule. The rule here in general is: "He that divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery." The exception here is: "He that divorces his wife because of fornication and marries another does not commit adultery." This could be stated another way. The rule in general: "It is not lawful to divorce a wife and marry another; it is adultery." The exception: "It is lawful for a man to divorce his wife for fornication, and marry another."

It is of no use to argue that the other gospel writers, Luke and Mark do not include the exception clause in their gospels (Mark 10:11-12; Luke 16:18). For even though they do not comment on it, it is used twice by Matthew (Matt. 5:32; 19:9) and therefore was certainly spoken by our Savior. Also, every good interpreter knows that where the same thing is reported by several writers, the briefer and shorter expressions are to be measured and interpreted by the fuller and longer accounts. And every general rule in Scripture is to be limited by any exception attached to it in another place of Scripture. Know for certain that there is hardly any general rule of Scripture that does not admit of an exception.

It is even more vain to argue that our Savior speaks here with respect to the Jews alone so that the exception clause only has application to them. In Jesus' answer to the Pharisees he refers back to the law of creation and the original creation ordinances which have authority over all mankind and not merely the Jews. He declared that the original institution of marriage was prior to the law of Moses and therefore is not limited to the Jews alone. This is a law, therefore, that is applicable to all mankind.

Also, when the Pharisees inquired of Jesus concerning divorce, they inquired of a divorce that was absolute and provided liberty to marry following the divorce. They had never heard of any other type of divorce. They had never heard of a mere separation "from table and marriage bed" in the Old Testament. Our Savior answers their query according to their understanding and therefore refers to the bond of marriage and not merely a separation from the duties and obligations alone. Therefore, Jesus denies the causes of divorce which the Pharisees allowed and then asserts fornication to be the only just cause of divorce. He therefore teaches that this divorce, of which they inquired about, was an absolute divorce from the bond of marriage. This is how the Pharisees would understand it and we cannot assume that Jesus does not answer them according to their understanding.

Furthermore, the Apostle Paul clearly states that the innocent party who is maliciously and obstinately deserted by their partner is set free to marry again. This affirms that the Christian religion does not remove the natural right and privilege of men in the case of divorce. "If the unbelieving depart, let him depart. A brother or a sister is not under bondage in such cases" (1 Cor. 7:15). If a spouse departs--whether due to religious differences or otherwise--and refuses to live together with a husband or wife, the deserted party is at liberty to marry again. The deserted spouse is at liberty because all the purposes and obligations of marriage are frustrated by this condition of desertion. Therefore, what shall a brother or sister that is a Christian do in the case that they are deserted? The apostle says, "They are not in bondage, but are free and thus at liberty to marry again."

This is the constant doctrine of all Protestant churches in the world.


 2010/9/30 1:27Profile
freedbyjc
Member



Joined: 2004/7/29
Posts: 204
Jacksonville. Florida

 Re: Divorce & Remarriage: A Position Paper by John Piper

I would be very interesting to hear his views after his self-imposed and elder approved sabbatical to work on re-focusing on his family and his marriage...

Other good "Marriage, Divorce and Remarriage" discourses are written by Jay Adams and Rubel Shelley ...


_________________
bill schnippert

 2010/10/15 7:24Profile
rnieman
Member



Joined: 2008/10/24
Posts: 146


 Re:

Lastblast you wrote:

Quote:
Interesting to me that after all Pastor Piper says/teaches on marriage enduring UNTIL death, that he then teaches people it is quite ok to remain in the adulterous situations they have entered because second marriages have "significant standing" in God's eyes. The problem with such a statement is that he has no scriptural backing for such a statement and as one can see, he gives no such evidence as he does for the case of lifelong marriage in the rest of his paper.



I believe Piper quotes the anti verse if you will. Deut 24:1-4. Which states that to separate and go back to the original spouse after a second marriage, it would be a abomination. thanks, Russ


 2010/10/15 13:23Profile
ginnyrose
Member



Joined: 2004/7/7
Posts: 7474
Mississippi

 Re:

I suggest you read the book "Till Death Do You Part" by Joseph Webb.

Bro. Webb is now at our church teaching us on this subject. He is very insightful - it would do all well to to read his book BEFORE you ever consider marrying.

Last night he talked about the seriousness of breaking a covenant, which is what binds a couple or makes them married. Webb used a lot of OT scriptures to demonstrate the seriousness of covenant breaking. Then you fast-forward to the NT and there you will this listed among the sins in Romans 1:31. If you check out that list in Strong's, you will find other sins that are inherent in covenant breaking. The point is that covenant breaking was a serious sin in the OT and it still is today. And it has far reaching implications, not just in marriage relationships.

Read this book and you will be challenged, at the least.

ginnyrose


_________________
Sandra Miller

 2010/10/16 9:50Profile
earle777
Member



Joined: 2010/10/13
Posts: 33


 Re:

I believe its a complete tradgedy that any preacher would try to preach that divorce and remarriage are ever permissible.

Jesus said, "I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee" hebrews 13:5 and that is the pattern we should follow.

Marriage is til death, period.

 2010/10/16 10:19Profile
ginnyrose
Member



Joined: 2004/7/7
Posts: 7474
Mississippi

 Re:

Quote:
I believe its a complete tradgedy that any preacher would try to preach that divorce and remarriage are ever permissible. Jesus said, "I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee" hebrews 13:5 and that is the pattern we should follow. Marriage is til death, period.



Agreed.


_________________
Sandra Miller

 2010/10/16 12:37Profile
utilizer001
Member



Joined: 2008/2/15
Posts: 83
Oregon

 Re:

Also agreed


_________________
Jason Smith

 2010/10/16 17:40Profile









 Re:

Where does it say "Till Death Do Us Part" in the bible?

And where does it say you can't remarry AFTER you've been divorced?

If we use the law for our basis, we better be careful, we don't live under that regime, though many do.

The law will tell me that I am a sinner and condemn me to hell, grace comes along and saves me from the curse of what the law demands. It doesn't matter what sin has been committed, God has the ability to save us even when we are in the throes of divorce. It won't be rosy, it will be messy, but when God forgives, He forgives.

By the way, when we are forgiven, it means that the slate has been cleared off, as if we never sinned. That means that we can remarry.

If we push law unto people, we are no different then the law, because we demand that people live by it. And if they don't live by it, then we condemn them to hell for not keeping it.

 2010/10/17 7:41





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