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 bible errancy


All members of this forum that I know of insist that the Bible is inerrant. I believe otherwise, that this book written by men, while inspired by God, is not without faults. I find many places where things don't sound right. Here is just one for you to consider:

Matt 1:16
Jacob the father of Joseph, the husband of Mary. Of her was born Jesus who is called the Messiah.

Luke 3:23
And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli,


Question for you: Who was the father of Joseph, Jacob or Heli? Which passage is correct? Both cannot be so.

Jake

 2004/4/7 15:27
InTheLight
Member



Joined: 2003/7/31
Posts: 2740
Phoenix, Arizona USA

 Re: bible errancy

Jake, this is an old one and has been exhaustively treated by a number of apologists, here is one such example;

[url=http://www.apologeticspress.org/abdiscr/abdiscr109.html]Who was Joseph's Father[/url]

Also, please consider the following quote from Robert Horn in 'The Book That Speaks For Itself';

"Think for a moment about what needs to be demonstrated concerning a "difficulty" in order to transfer it into the catagory of a valid argument against doctrine. Certainly much more is required than the mere appearance of a contradiction. First, we must be certain that we have correctly understood the passage, the sense in which it uses words or numbers. Second, that we possess all available knowledge in this matter. Third, that no further light can possibly be thrown on it by advancing knowledge, textual research. archaeology, etc...
Difficulties do not constitute objections. Unsolved problems are not of necessity errors. This is not to minimize the area of difficulty; it is to see it in perspective. Difficulties are to be grappled with and problems are to drive us to seek clearer light; but until such a time as we have total and final light on any issue we are in no position to affirm, "here is a proven error, an unquestionable objection to an infallible Bible." It is common knowledge that countless 'objections' have been fully resolved since this century began."

In Christ,

Ron


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Ron Halverson

 2004/4/7 16:28Profile
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"Pilgrim and Sojourner." - 1 Peter 2:11

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 Re:

Thanks Ron,

here is a quote for that website you just refered to:

"The answer to this supposed contradiction is relatively simple: the first seventeen verses in the first chapter of Matthew give the genealogy of Jesus through Joseph, while Luke 3 presents the genealogy of Jesus through Mary. Hence, Jacob is the father of Joseph (Matthew 1:16), while Heli is the father of Mary (Luke 3:23). If this is true, the logical question that both critics and serious Bible students ask is why Mary is not mentioned in Luke’s genealogy? The answer is again quite simple: Luke follows the strict Hebrew tradition of mentioning only the names of males. Therefore, in this case, Mary is designated by her husband’s name."

Thats quite clear! :-D


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SI Moderator - Greg Gordon

 2004/4/7 16:37Profile
RobertW
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Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Brethren,

When discussing the inerrancy of scripture it is important to understand that there are what are known as "apparent contradictions." These are things that seem to be contradictions, but upon further examination the scripture is vindicated.

We believe that scripture is infallible in its original tongues.

Here is a link to the recently reaffirmed Chicago Statement:

http://www.reformed.org/documents/icbi.html

As a student of God's word I was always a skeptic. I'm from the "Show Me" State (Missouri). I studied every argument against the scripture I found and none of them were realistic.

Establishing the authority of scripture is the most basic requirement in apologetics.

Many over the centuries have sifted through the Word of God trying to find a contradiction. The Word of God is an Anvil that has worn out many hammers.

In Liberal Seminary settings things are talked about that are so far beyond normative Bible study- that they pick at the Bible until they don't know what to believe. I have read old scholarship materials on Bible archeology that pretended that so many ancient sites were not as the Bible said that have been totally disproved since Israel took over the land in 1948. Did we read any corrections or retractions? No. because most of the writers were dead and the scripture they tried to discount preached their funeral.

Friends, when you see the great load of evidence as to how God has protected his word through the centuries it is a fearful thing. Perhaps we can point to some as this thread develops as apologetics is one of my favorite subjects :-D

God Bless,

-Robert


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Robert Wurtz II

 2004/4/7 16:57Profile
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Joined: 2004/2/11
Posts: 60
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 Re: bible errancy

Though I have not studied this supposed contradiction, I will point out that any male ancestor was sometimes called father. Abraham is the father of Issac, but also the father of Jacob, Esau, etc.

 2004/4/7 17:52Profile
JKail
Member



Joined: 2004/2/29
Posts: 34


 Re:

I love these two quotes from Charles Spurgeon:

"The only real argument against the Bible is an unholy life. When a man argues against the Word of God, follow him home, and see if you cannot discover the reason of his enmity to the Word of the Lord. It lies in some sort of sin."

"The Word of God is like a lion. You don't have to defend a lion. All you have to do is let the lion loose, and the lion will defend itself."


Its fine to have questions or doubts about certain passages; be honest with God about them and ask him to reveal his truth. In the end, we must not judge the Word of God, but allow it to judge us. The authority and infallibility of Scripture is an absolutely essesntial doctrine to the Christian faith. Without it, everything crumbles.

Jesus believed in the authority of Scripture (Old Testament) and then told the apostles that the Holy Spirit would lead them into all truth, and thus we have the new testament Scripture. A helpful sermon might be R.A Torrey's sermon on this website. (I think its called "Why I believe the Bible to be the Word of God")

The Bible is given to us that we may know God the Father through Jesus Christ and this only comes by revelation of the Holy Spirit. One of the most dangerous things in the church, or world for that matter, is a person who knows the Bible but does not know God. This was the case with the Pharisees...

Anyways, that may have been a little bit of a tangent but I hope it helps.

In Him,
Jake Kail


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Jake Kail

 2004/4/7 19:10Profile
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 Re:

Quote:
"The only real argument against the Bible is an unholy life. When a man argues against the Word of God, follow him home, and see if you cannot discover the reason of his enmity to the Word of the Lord. It lies in some sort of sin."


What a powerful quote by spurgeon! It's very true that reading of the bible and practicing the truths therein will result in a holy life. D.L. Moody stated once: "either this book will keep you from sin or sin will keep you from this book."

"A Bible that's falling apart usually belongs to someone who isn't."
-Charles Spurgeon

There is so much awesome truth and life in the bible that you could believe every jot and tittle but then not partake of the Life of Gods spirit at all. Ultimately the Bible should lead you to know and [b]experience[/b] God more namely through prayer. As to the infallible state of the bible is an very arguable point. It seems to me that the original [i]greek[/i] and [i]hebrew[/i] manuscripts have some variance over words and periods. But overall the same message and truths are clearly the same and should be considered all truth if one is to accept the testimony of the Scriptures as from God.

"It is impossible to rightly govern the world without God and the Bible."
-George Washington


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SI Moderator - Greg Gordon

 2004/4/7 19:28Profile









 Re: geneology of Joseph and Mary - Matt or Luke

THe problem with your explanation of the differences in geneologies being attributed to Mary vs. Joseph is that both geneologies (Matt 1 and Luke 3) have Salathiel begeting Zorobabel. But in Luke there are 19 generations between Zorobabel and Joseph and in Matthew there are 10 generations. If this is true, there is no way that Joseph and Mary could have been alive at the same time.

Jake

 2004/4/8 10:35
InTheLight
Member



Joined: 2003/7/31
Posts: 2740
Phoenix, Arizona USA

 Re:

Again Jake, this has been covered by numerous apologists, a diligent search on the web will clearly show this.

Jake, you are fond of quoting Matthew 6:6 where Jesus instructs His disciples to pray in their closet. I'm wondering how you can be sure anything Matthew has written is Spirit inspired when his geneology is in question?

In Christ,

Ron


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Ron Halverson

 2004/4/8 11:07Profile









 Re:


Ron,

I can't find any explanation, can you direct me to one on the web? or provide it here?

Regarding Matt 6:6 if Jesus had said we should stand before others and pray long and loud to show our faith, would you do so? Wouldn't this stand out as inconsistent with the rest of His word?

Consistency in the content of his teachings is what makes Jesus words valuable to all of us. His life, deeds and words are consistent in challenging people to love and forgive others regardless of human anger and emotion, throughout the Gospels account of His life.

My point is not to argue against the word of God. My point is that God's truth stands out from inconsistency and error and the person attentive to "that of God" in life will find it.

Jake

 2004/4/8 12:06





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