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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Once saved always saved- or "the perserverance of God"

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whyme
Member



Joined: 2007/4/3
Posts: 293


 Re:

I would like to second JaySaved's question of what does predestination mean in the Bible, especially Romans 8? By the same token, what does the word "foreknew" mean in Romans 8:30? I think that if you look at Romans 8:29 and 30 as merely a fuller explanation of Romans 8:28 and track the language of 8:28 and then overlay it against 8:29 then you have a possible answer for both questions. When God arranges or works all things for the good of those who love Him, who have been called according to His purpose isn't God then saying the same thing in Romans 8:29 ie, he arranges all things ( predestines ) for the good ( justification and glorification ) of those called according to His purpose ( being conformed to Christ to create many brothers in Christ ). Those whom he foreknew are those who love Him. To know God and be known by God are, biblically speaking, the same thing as having an intimate relationship with God. So God foreknew not in the sense of who would choose Him but in the sense of who love Him or whom He before time specially or salvifically loved. For me God loved me first and then and only then, do I love Him. In any event, Jay, I think Romans 8:28 answers what predestination is for Romans 8:29-30. and Romans 8:29-30 is a completing explanation for what Romans 8:28 says. I think people take Romans 8:28 out of its context way too often. It belongs with and should not be read apart from verses 29 and 30.

 2007/5/23 15:22Profile









 Re:

Quote:
HI GraceAlone,

Instead of posting scriptures that seem to imply once saved always saved...can you post your explination for the scriputers that seem to say otherwise?

I've been reading a lot of Spurgeon, Pink, Whitfield, Issac Ambross and the like lately. I've yet to find anything by any of these preachers that deal with the scriptures that talk about falling away. It makes me wonder if they just overlook them because they don't fit into their doctrine.

So if you would like to comment on the verses in Hebrews, 1 Tim 4:1, Romans 11:21-22, 1 Cor 10, John 15:1-6..ect..ect. I would like to hear comments on these verses. How do you reconcile them with once saved always saved?



??

 2007/5/24 7:40
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:
GraceAlone wrote:

Point is if a man is truly a believer then he will believe the rest of His life.

If somebody falls from the faith (starts living in sin) they were never a Christian. (or more clearly "they never truly believed")

Do not underestimate the enemy and the subtlety of deception.
If Adam and Eve could be seduced, so could you.

As I said before, It's not about how much sin one does to loose salvation, but what one believes.
Furthermore, It's not about what one does to prove that one was never a Christian. It's is about if one actually knows Christ that proves if one is a Christian or not.
However, the fact that Satan is very subtle, and able to seduce even the elect(Mark 13:22).

To fall away is to be deceived into believing another Gospel(Gal 1:7-9) and believing in another Christ(Mark 13:21)

Quote:
GraceAlone
I'd like some biblical responses to these scriptures- If any one could explain

1 John 3:6 "Whoever (unrepentantly bathes in) sins has neither seen Him nor known Him."


I'd like to hear a response. Otherwise, the scriptures are clear

This is about practicing sin. Never the less, one can be lead astray.

Quote:
JaySaved
By the way, to all who do not hold to a Calvinistic theology, what does predestination mean as recorded in the bible?
----------------------------------------------
To all those who are not Calvinists and do not believe in Eternal Security/Once Saved Always Saved/Perseverance of the Saints, what does the bible mean when it talks about Predestination.


according to foreknowledge that God knew that you would choose, predestination means that He knew you where going to end up, therefore He predetermined you to be there.

For instance:
I know my wife would choose "Red Lobster" over another restaurant if it was in the choice.
I would plan on taking her there and make reservations before she made the choice.

Quote:
GraceAlone
Judas was never a Christian. Jesus made that clear throughout his ministry.

Judas was called and chosen.

Quote:
sscott
Quote:

So if you would like to comment on the verses in Hebrews, 1 Tim 4:1, Romans 11:21-22, 1 Cor 10, John 15:1-6..ect..ect. I would like to hear comments on these verses. How do you reconcile them with once saved always saved?

??


What do you have to say about these Scriptures?

 2007/5/24 20:19Profile
PassingThru
Member



Joined: 2005/5/7
Posts: 175


 Re:

Quote:

To all those who are not Calvinists and do not believe in Eternal Security/Once Saved Always Saved/Perseverance of the Saints, what does the bible mean when it talks about Predestination.


I understand it to mean that our names are in the Book of Life, however our choices can cause Christ to blot them out.
[color=000099]
Rev 3:5 He [b]that overcometh[/b], the same shall be clothed in white raiment; [b]and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life[/b], but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.
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If eternal security were true, it would make more sense for Revelations to say "for those that overcome, I'll write their names in the Book of Life." or "Those that overcome will find that their names are already in my Book where they cannot be erased"

Quote:

If Adam and Eve could be seduced, so could you.


To me, the biggest problem with the concept of eternal security is that it cancels our free will. Once we've reached eternal security, we would no longer be free to decide against it.
[color=000099]
Rom 11:17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, [b]wert grafted in[/b] among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
...
Rom 11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed [b]lest he also spare not thee.[/b]

Joh 15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.
[/color]
That which has been grafted in, can still be cast out.

I agree that Christ is able to keep us until the day of redemption, however I think our free will still applies. The bus is able to take you to the town centre, but will you stay on board long enough to get there?

PassingThru

 2007/5/24 21:55Profile





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