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 Re: Jews against Zionism

Here is the thread [url=http://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=6425&post_id=132002&order=0&viewmode=flat&pid=0&forum=36#132002]'Is 'everlasting' meaningfully different from 'eternal'?'
[/url]


I've put a question there.


[i](Moderator edit: Reconfigured the link here to make the page more presentable)[/i]

 2007/5/20 10:42









 Re:

Hi Linn
I have been wondering whether to respond to your recent post or not, as I don’t want to get back into arguing mode! You seem to keep misunderstanding where I'm coming from, and I don't know what to do about it!

Disagreements I can usually cope with but complete misunderstanding I can't :-( And there are at least three misunderstandings in the one post!

Anyway, here's an attempt to respond to the first two parts (and at least one of the misunderstandings) of your post.

Quote:
Dorcas said:
Quote:

and they shall inherit it for ever.


This is the end of Exodus 32:13.

I'm going to re-open an old thread of mine on whether there is a difference between 'for ever' and 'everlasting', which philologos kindly answered.

I notice that Young chooses 'and they have inherited to the age;' This is more in keeping with my understanding; namely, that the earth will end. Now, where will 'Israel' the country be, in the new earth?


I haven’t looked at that thread yet, but think that for ever - literally “unto the age” as you said - is probably used more loosely in Scripture than our English concept of “forever”. In the Scriptural context it probably means while the earth [i]in its present form[/i] remains. As God said after the Flood; that the seasons, and day and night, will not cease “while the earth remains”. Yet John saw that in the New Jerusalem there is no night!

So the simple answer to your question “where will 'Israel' the country be, in the new earth?” is “I don’t know, because all will be changed.

But I thought this thread was about Israel [i]in the present time[/i], while this old earth still exists, and before Jesus returns. So why bring up the question of the new earth?
Quote:
…In the background of this discussion is the truth of Ruth and Rahab in the genealogy of Christ, and the fact that any gentile could become a Jew by joining themselves to their religious practices.

I’m not sure where this fits in. Even to begin a discussion on "Who exactly is a Jew?" depends on whether we’re talking about the natural or the spiritual. The answer to the spiritual question is easy, and one you would agree on, (Romans 2:28-29 “For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh; 29 but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the Spirit, not in the letter”)

But the natural question is more difficult, I'm not sure of the answer. Perhaps it's a bit like the question "Who is an American?" Many nations have emigrated to the States over many years, yet they are now all Americans!

Who belongs to "spiritual Israel" isn't in dispute, and isn't the issue under discussion, as far as I know.

The question of who comprises the nation of Israel, or what exactly makes a person a Jew in the natural, is relevant, but maybe not vital to the discussion of "Zionism" etc?

Ruth and Rahab, as far as I can understand, came to belong to both natural and spiritual Israel - true believers in the God of Israel but also absorbed into the Jewish nation.


Blessings


Jeannette



 2007/5/22 18:14









 Re: "everlasting"

Quote:

dorcas wrote:

Here is the thread 'Is 'everlasting' meaningfully different from 'eternal'?'

[url=http://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=6425&post_id=132002&order=0&viewmode=flat&pid=0&forum=36#132002]'Is 'everlasting' meaningfully different from 'eternal'?'
[/url]

I've put a question there.

Just had a look at the thread, some good comments, that I'd like to look at when its not so late at night.

The thought that eternal is essentially different to everlasting... Yes, I suppose it has to be, as "everlasting" is bound by time and space, while eternal isn't...

But, as said, I don't think it's relevant to the subject of this thread!

Jeannette

 2007/5/22 18:30









 Re: Jews against Zionism



Hi Jeanette,

Quote:
In the Scriptural context it probably means while the earth in its present form remains. As God said after the Flood; that the seasons, and day and night, will not cease “while the earth remains”. Yet John saw that in the New Jerusalem there is no night!

So the simple answer to your question “where will 'Israel' the country be, in the new earth?” is “I don’t know, because all will be changed.

It is a pleasure to agree on this, with you.

The reason I bring up the matter of the new earth is that there are Christians who do not believe it in the 'new earth'. They don't believe '.. earth' will flee 'away at His presence', or

Psalm 102
25 Of old hast thou laid the foundation of the earth: and the heavens [i]are[/i] the work of thy hands.
26 [b]They shall perish[/b], but thou shalt endure: yea, [b]all of them shall wax old like a garment; as a vesture shalt thou change them, and they shall be changed[/b]:
27 But thou [i]art[/i] the same, and thy years shall have no end.
28 The children of thy servants shall continue, and their seed shall be established before thee.


So, when I'm writing on the internet, I like to make clear as much as possible of my thesis, because I believe it's important for everything to cross-reference as much as possible within scripture.

This is the main reason I don't see the modern Israel as more than men's attempts to bring fulfilment a word of God which is mainly of carnal significance in this day. Of course God knew there would be a modern Israel. Of course He is still waiting for all who should be saved to be saved from amongst those who consider themselves Jews (of whatever origin). Of course He is defending His Name, whether in Israel or elsewhere. But, He does it according to His own counsel. That's why more Christians are dying for Christ today than in any other century. This is [i]not[/i] what a carnal man would call 'salvation'. Just as the 'Israel' which exists in territorial terms is a distinctly different one from that proclaimed by the writer of Hebrews in chapter 11.

A huge amount of prophecy is being fulfilled through the existence of the modern Israel, but I believe the interpretation of its existence is not necessarily the fulfilment of the much quoted promise that Abraham's descendents would return to the the land God promised him.

I also believe there is a huge amount of emotional flotsam and jetsom around the matter of Israel's existence, which is borne out of the rejection of Christ by 'His own', and the fact that observant Jews are brought up on a studied misinterpretation of their own scriptures, which leaves them ill-equipped (like those of us who have no such background) to comprehend the gospel apart from the Holy Spirit's enlightenment.

I've run out of time on this session, but I've said enough anyway.

Thanks for continuing to engage on this, as it is defintely an important matter to dig out of scripture with as much coherence as is possible.

 2007/5/23 7:52









 Re:

Quote:
Dorcas said: It is a pleasure to agree on this, with you.

The reason I bring up the matter of the new earth is that there are Christians who do not believe it in the 'new earth'. They don't believe '.. earth' will flee 'away at His presence'

Hi

It would be far less confusing if you only disagreed with what I actually said, not with what I didn't say! :-?

Wouldn't it?

I'm glad we agree on something too, but still get the impression that you are not actually [i]hearing[/i] what is being said (although I'm sure you are listening, or trying to listen). Perhaps you are fixing your attention so much on what [i]others[/i] have thought on this subject, and missing what I'm saying? As you said above, "there are Christians who do not believe it in the 'new earth'", but I happen not to be one of them!

Can't we leave "them" to get on with it and just discuss the present issues? Especially as I keep thinking you are arguing against me when maybe you aren't!

And where is everyone else? For example, I wanted some feedback on the question of whether the promise to Abraham re the land had been fulfilled yet or not. Because that is the one thing I know of that might convince me that God has already fulfilled all His promises to "Israel after the flesh" after all.


Blessings

Jeannette

 2007/5/24 13:06









 Re: Jews against Zionism

LittleGift said

Quote:
It would be far less confusing if you only disagreed with what I actually said, not with what I didn't say!

Wouldn't it?

Put another way, if I say something which you agree with, why comment on it at all? :-?

Quote:
I wanted some feedback on the question of whether the promise to Abraham re the land had been fulfilled yet or not. Because that is the one thing I know of that might convince me that God has already fulfilled all His promises to "Israel after the flesh" after all.

I'm working on it.... ;-)

 2007/5/24 16:57









 Re:

Quote:

dorcas wrote:
LittleGift said
Quote:
It would be far less confusing if you only disagreed with what I actually said, not with what I didn't say!


Put another way, if I say something which you agree with, why comment on it at all? :-?

I don't understand what you mean! It's not to do with whether we agree or not...

What I was trying to say is that it's confusing if you, in a reply to me, argue against a position I don't actually hold! Such as the one mentioned in the last message, about the new heavens and new earth.

Or if you state something that I already believe and understand and agree with you on, as if I [i]don't[/i] believe or understand or agree! Such as the New Covenant.

Someone else - [i]please[/i] help us to understand one another!!!

Jeannette

 2007/5/24 17:12









 Re:

Quote:
Someone else - please help us to understand one another!!!

Girls, Welcome to Christianity :-P

 2007/5/24 17:16









 Re:

Quote:
LittleGift wrote:
What I was trying to say is that it's confusing if you, in a reply to me, argue against a position I don't actually hold! Such as the one mentioned in the last message, about the new heavens and new earth.

Or if you state something that I already believe and understand and agree with you on, as if I [i]don't[/i] believe or understand or agree! Such as the New Covenant.


For example, from that previous post:

Quote:
You said: Also, I am continually noticing how Paul, again and again, changes the terms of engagement under the New Covenant, from what they were under the Old. From 'He is a Jew who is one inwardly' to 'children of Abraham' being those who 'believe', there are many other claims he makes, which I find militating against hanging on too hard, to ANYTHING from the Old Covenant.

Who’s hanging on to anything from the Old Covenant? I'm not, and haven't noticed anyone else on this thread or similar ones, doing that.

I carefully avoid using the word "covenant" in this connection, for this very reason that the Old Covenant is fulfilled and [i]ended[/i] in Jesus. Isn't that what you would also say?

I don't mind you saying it, but why keep saying it as if I don't know it and you have to explain it to me?
Quote:
Jews have only one way into the blessing of God, and that is through faith in Christ Jesus. This is the thesis in Romans 9. They can reclaim the land in hope, but they will die misbelieving, if without Him.

Of course, who is disputing the fact?

It's not really anything to do with the blessing, or otherwise, of God, but everything to do with the fact that God keeps His Word, no matter what man does!

If He has said something then it will come to pass. To me [i][u]that[/u][/i] is the only issue worth discussing!

The only relevant questions therefore are: [b][color=000066]what exactly has God said re "Israel after the flesh", and has it fully and finally come to pass yet?[/color][/b]

On this hinges whether modern-day "Zionism" is in any way justified or not - in its aims if not its methods.

By the way: Abraham used the wrong method to fulfill God's promise when he took Hagar to wife; but the Lord fulfilled His promise anyway.

With us or without us, God always keeps His Word.


Love in Him


Jeannette

 2007/5/24 18:29









 Re:

Quote:

Compliments wrote:
Quote:
Someone else - please help us to understand one another!!!

Girls, Welcome to Christianity :-P

That's all very well, and thanks for popping in again (after all you started this thread!)

But is this helpful? :-P

 2007/5/24 18:33





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