SermonIndex Audio Sermons
Image Map
Discussion Forum : General Topics : Jews Against Zionism

Print Thread (PDF)

Goto page ( Previous Page 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 Next Page )
PosterThread









 Re:

Quote:
Dorcas said:
Jeanette said
Quote:

God must keep His Word - even to a stiffnecked and rebellious people



Quote:
I can't ignore the 'if' with which God accompanied His word. In my understanding, the 'if' also counts as part of His intentions

You mean that some of His promises are conditional? But not all. The promise to Noah never again to bring an universal flood for example. I thought that the promise to Abraham re the land was of this kind, not conditional, no "if" Though I may be mistaken, will have to check...(it's getting a bit late to do it tonight)

Blessings

Jeannette

 2007/5/15 18:49









 Re: Jews against Zionism

Jeanette said

Quote:
thought that the promise to Abraham re the land was of this kind, not conditional

I agree, but, when they returned from Egypt, wasn't that God's word fulfilled?

 2007/5/17 7:38
JaySaved
Member



Joined: 2005/7/11
Posts: 1131
Kentucky

 Re:

According to Wikipedia, Zionism is:
"national liberation movement, a political movement and an ideology that supports a homeland for the Jewish people in the Land of Israel, where the Jewish nation originated over 3,200 years ago and where Jewish kingdoms and self-governing states existed up to the 2nd century CE. While Zionism is based in part upon religious tradition linking the Jewish people to the Land of Israel, the modern movement was originally secular, beginning largely as a response to rampant antisemitism in Europe during the 19th century. After a number of advances and setbacks, and after the Holocaust had destroyed Jewish society in Europe, the Zionist movement culminated in the establishment of the State of Israel in 1948."

I have no problem with Jews wanting a homeland. In fact, I strongly support Israel's right to exist. They are a strong ally of America and we should always support them in their time of need.

But spiritually speaking, I am very cautious when Christians use the Bible to support Zionism. Zion is mentioned in the OT many times referring to Jerusalem and specifically the area of the Temple, but in the New Testament we see that Zion is fulfilled in Jesus and the New Covenant.

Look at Hebrews 12:18-24 (NASB)

"18For you have not come to a mountain that can be touched and to a blazing fire, and to darkness and gloom and whirlwind,

19and to the blast of a trumpet and the sound of words which sound was such that those who heard begged that no further word be spoken to them.

20For they could not bear the command, "IF EVEN A BEAST TOUCHES THE MOUNTAIN, IT WILL BE STONED."

21And so terrible was the sight, that Moses said, "I AM FULL OF FEAR and trembling."

22But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to myriads of angels,

23to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the Judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect,

24and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood, which speaks better than the blood of Abel."

Did you see how the writer of Hebrews used Zion in verse 22, he used it in a spiritual way to refer to the New Covenant. He does the same thing with 'city of the living God' in calling it the 'heavenly Jerusalem'.

This modern form of Zionism is simply Jews wanting to reclaim their former Judaism and for some they don't even want that...they just want a country to live in run by Jews.

Why would we ever encourage anyone to reclaim their false religion? Specifically, why would Christians ever encourage Jews to reclaim their former ways under Judaism with a Temple, sacrifices and feasts...all those were fulfilled in Jesus.

 2007/5/17 10:09Profile









 Re:

Quote:

dorcas wrote:
Jeanette said
Quote:
thought that the promise to Abraham re the land was of this kind, not conditional

I agree, but, when they returned from Egypt, wasn't that God's word fulfilled?

Hi, only just noticed this.

I've been trying to look it up, but as usual time has beaten me, so excuse the lack of accurate Bible references)!

The territory promised to Abraham was (East to West) from the Mediterranian to the Euphrates, and North to South from the Arabah to...?. I don't think Israel went as far as that under Joshua or in the time of the Judges or King Saul.

After the return form Egypt the conquest was only partial, [i]at least[/i] until the time of David, and even then I'm not sure if it was complete.

David conquered an area near the Euprates, or possibly as far as the river, when he defeated King Hadadrezar (1Chronicles 18) but it doesn't seem that this area has ever actually formed part of Israel proper - apparently this area was at most composed of vassel states. I don't know if this counts or not, as fulfillment of the original Promise. Personally I think not, but don't have enough information to be sure.

Maybe someone with a better memory for historical and geographical details can help clarify this?

Maybe it helps to notice that God said to Abraham that He had (already?)given him and his descendants this land as a [i]permanent[/i] possession. Yet Abraham himself never actualy possessed any of it, except for a [i][u]burial plot[/u][/i], which he actually bought with money!

The spiritual significance of this is [i]huge[/i], (but off topic!)

in Him

Jeannette

 2007/5/17 19:02









 Re:

Quote:

JaySaved wrote:
According to Wikipedia, Zionism is:
"national liberation movement, a political movement and an ideology that supports a homeland for the Jewish people in the Land of Israel, where the Jewish nation originated over 3,200 years ago and where Jewish kingdoms and self-governing states existed up to the 2nd century CE. While Zionism is based in part upon religious tradition linking the Jewish people to the Land of Israel, the modern movement was originally secular, beginning largely as a response to rampant antisemitism in Europe during the 19th century. After a number of advances and setbacks, and after the Holocaust had destroyed Jewish society in Europe, the Zionist movement culminated in the establishment of the State of Israel in 1948."

Hi Jay

It wouldn't be the first time in world history (nor will it be the last) where secular or pagan political forces are used by the Lord to carry out HIS plans. Cyrus in ancient times, and Winston Churchill during WWII, are examples of leaders who probably didn’t know the Lord, yet He used them.
Quote:
I have no problem with Jews wanting a homeland. In fact, I strongly support Israel's right to exist. They are a strong ally of America and we should always support them in their time of need.

I’m not sure if I agree with this reason (which is political rather than spiritual!) for supporting them!

Quote:
But spiritually speaking, I am very cautious when Christians use the Bible to support Zionism.

It depends on how one defines "Zionism" (see below).

So you think that the spiritual truth of the New Covenant somehow cancels out God's promises to "Israel after the flesh"?

Why should it? Surely both truths can exist together, without the slightest conflict.

The superseding of the Old Covenant by the New concerns religious ritual, and the righteousness of God, wholly fulfilled in Jesus. I don't see how it has any bearing on the land question.

Quote:
Zion is mentioned in the OT many times referring to Jerusalem and specifically the area of the Temple, but in the New Testament we see that Zion is fulfilled in Jesus and the New Covenant.

But God’s promise of the land is unaffected by this wonderful spiritual truth - as said above.

The word Zionism is surely only a convenient handle for the movement? You could just as well call it Jewish nationalism.
Quote:
Look at Hebrews 12:18-24 (NASB)…

Did you see how the writer of Hebrews used Zion in verse 22, he used it in a spiritual way to refer to the New Covenant. He does the same thing with 'city of the living God' in calling it the 'heavenly Jerusalem'.

Of course, that's obvious! But how could that truth cancel God's promises concerning the land?
Quote:
This modern form of Zionism is simply Jews wanting to reclaim their former Judaism and for some they don't even want that...they just want a country to live in run by Jews.

That’s probably true, but what difference do their motives make?

Quote:
Why would we ever encourage anyone to reclaim their false religion? Specifically, why would Christians ever encourage Jews to reclaim their former ways under Judaism with a Temple, sacrifices and feasts...all those were fulfilled in Jesus.

I wouldn't want to encourage that either. If some Christians do so they are wrong.

I honestly don’t understand why you are connecting this with support of their clam to the land the Lord promised them! :-?

Personally I'm not interested in what form modern Zionism takes, whether it is right or wrong, or whether its proponents have a political or religious agenda or both. [i][b]All I’m interested in is the fact that the Lord is going to fulfil His Word[/b][/i] concerning a stubborn and rebellious people, yet who are still – in some sense - His in a way that other peoples are not.

The New Covenant is on a different level, the spiritual. Of course, spiritual and physical interact, but emphasising this spiritual truth at the expense of Israel after the flesh, is like saying that we [i]already[/i] have our resurrection bodies, or that the Millennium is already here, or Jesus has already come. (Full Preterists apparently believe this, but no-one else as far as I know!)

[i]Spiritually[/i] the New Creation IS in the here and now, brought into being via the New Covenant, but not yet fully manifested. As Hebrews says, the Father [i]has[/i] put all things under Jesus’ feet, but we do not yet see all things under Him.

Spiritually it is only in Christ that Jews or anyone else can be part of God’s true people, but physically and nationally Israel, and the land promised to Abraham, are still very significant and special – their very existence a witness to God’s power upon earth, and His workings in the affairs of men.

Blessings

Jeannette

 2007/5/17 20:15
KingJimmy
Member



Joined: 2003/5/8
Posts: 4419
Charlotte, NC

 Re:

Very well stated LittleGift. As Art Katz has pointed out, the literal fulfillment of the prophecies regarding Israel in the land has chiefly to do with the glory of God. For such will be a tangible expression of God's glory, as through Christ He will rule the nations with a rod of iron, with Jerusalem being exalted above all nations with all the nations bringing their glory into it.

For such will demonstrate that He indeed is the faithful God who has mercy upon whom He has mercy. And one of the chief expressions of that mercy is that He has elected one nation out of all the nations of the world to inherit a certain geographical piece of land. And for what reason? As He says time and time again, for no reason whatsoever. For it was not that Abraham or his descendants were great people. Far from it, they were the least of peoples. But God chose the weak and despised thing, the very thing that nobody else would choose, and chose to exalt them and give them these promises which He intends to keep.

This also says much of God's sovereignty and His lordship. For we as the nations have been deceived into thinking we draw the borders on the map. But God has said no, that He shall have none of this. But rather, it is He who has authority alone to do this. It is He alone who determines the nations, their locations, and their durations. He is the one in control.

And the tangible expression of His position as Lord of all the earth is that He has decided that the descendants of Abraham shall dwell forever in the land that the Canannite, Hittite, Ammorite, Jebusite, etc., all thought as theirs. But boy, were they ever in for a rude surprise when the armies of Israel crossed the Jordan! Can you imagine it? It would be as if I knocked on my next door neighbors house tomorrow morning and said, "Excuse me, God has determined I am to live here." My neighbor would surely protest, and not leave without a fight. But you know what, if God is indeed the Lord of the whole earth, then He alone has authority to determine these things.

Amen!


_________________
Jimmy H

 2007/5/17 22:44Profile









 Re: Jews against Zionism

Jeanette said

Quote:
Yet Abraham himself never actualy possessed any of it, except for a burial plot, which he actually bought with money!

So, when Abram went on his initial journey, had children; eventually Jacob's sons sold Joseph into Egypt, where do you think they were living?

I have always been under the impression that Abram literally walked into the land, and to all intents and purposes, it was his. OF COURSE he didn't have a big enough company to spread out over the whole are, but, he lived in peace there.

More, he was not interested in the possession as modern Israelis are today, according (again)to the writer of the Hebrews in 11:10 for he waited for the city which has foundations, whose builder and maker [is] God.

 2007/5/18 10:28









 Re: Abraham's possession of the land?

Quote:

dorcas wrote:
Jeanette said
Quote:
Yet Abraham himself never actualy possessed any of it, except for a burial plot, which he actually bought with money!

So, when Abram went on his initial journey, had children; eventually Jacob's sons sold Joseph into Egypt, where do you think they were living?

I have always been under the impression that Abram literally walked into the land, and to all intents and purposes, it was his. OF COURSE he didn't have a big enough company to spread out over the whole are, but, he lived in peace there.

My point was that he didn't [i]own[/i] the land - except for the burial plot. He sojourned there, travelling around, as a nomad chieftan, much, I imagine, as the Bedouin do today. None of the rest of the land was actually his, though he walked in it and lived in it and believed in the God Who had given it [i]as a permanent possession[/i](Genesis 17:8, 48:4).
Quote:
More, he was not interested in the possession as modern Israelis are today, according (again)to the writer of the Hebrews in 11:10 for he waited for the city which has foundations, whose builder and maker [is] God.

Surely Abraham was interested in the fulfillment of God's promise, for His glory, as both I and King Jimmy have said. No-one is denying the spiritual truths of the New Birth and "Jerusalem above". But Abraham also believed in God, who promised a literal, physical land as a possession for his literal, physical descendants!

Why do you have a problem with that aspect of what God said?

This fulfillment of God's promise to Abraham has both spiritual and physical aspects. Both are true, not just one. To focus on either the physical or the spiritual aspect at the expense of the other is error. Some Christians and Jews, as you have said, err in emphasising the physical aspect, as if Jesus hadn't died to set us free from the Law, and bring Jew and Gentile together into His Kingdom. Others err in denying the physical aspect, as if only the spiritual existed.

God is God of the whole [i]earth[/i], not only the spiritual realms, or spiritual truths. Physical and spiritual interact, none is complete without taking the other into account also.

If you concentrate on the spiritual aspect and ignore or deny the physical you are dangerously near the Gnostic idea that matter is of no importance at all, or even evil.

I hope this hasn't been put too harshly, it's not meant that way, but it does concern me very deeply that some Christians seem unable to appreciate that the issue of Israel and the Jews is to do primarily with GOD - His Word, His honour, His glory.

Remember how Moses pleaded His honor when God threatened to destroy the people because of their rebellion? (Exodus 32:9-13)

I think that the denial of His Word concerning His earthly people is also a form of antisemitism, if only a mild form; but the central issue is that GOD HAS SAID...

Yours in Him

Jeannette

 2007/5/18 17:03









 Re:

Quote:
I said:...the issue of Israel and the Jews is to do primarily with GOD - His Word, His honour, His glory.

Remember how Moses pleaded His honor when God threatened to destroy the people because of their rebellion? (Exodus 32:9-13)

Looking at this reference again I think it's a key to so much:

[color=000099] 9 And the Lord said to Moses, “I have seen this people, and behold, it is a stiff-necked people; 10 now therefore let me alone, that my wrath may burn hot against them and I may consume them; but of you I will make a great nation.”
11 But Moses besought the Lord his God, and said, “O Lord, why does thy wrath burn hot against thy people, whom thou hast brought forth out of the land of Egypt with great power and with a mighty hand? 12 Why should the Egyptians say, ‘With evil intent did he bring them forth, to slay them in the mountains, and to consume them from the face of the earth’? Turn from thy fierce wrath, and repent of this evil against thy people. 13 [i][b]Remember Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, thy servants, [u]to whom thou didst swear by thine own self[/u], and didst say to them, ‘I will multiply your descendants as the stars of heaven, and all this land that I have promised I will give to your descendants, and they shall inherit it for ever.’”[/b][/i] And the Lord repented of the evil which he thought to do to his people.
(Revised Standard Version)[/color]

Blessings

Jeannette

 2007/5/18 17:15









 Re: Jews against Zionism


Hi Jeanette,

Quote:
and they shall inherit it for ever.

This is the end of Exodus 32:13.

I'm going to re-open an old thread of mine on whether there is a difference between 'for ever' and 'everlasting', which philologos kindly answered.

I notice that Young chooses 'and they have inherited to the age;' This is more in keeping with my understanding; namely, that the earth will end. Now, where will 'Israel' the country be, in the new earth?

I still feel there is a great deal of scripture to be explored to account for the many times God refers to the 'whole' world.

KingJimmy's allusion to 'the nations', does not necessarily imply a lot of separate countries. That is what we are used to on the earth today, but, there is no reason to assume, during a time of world peace, that national boundaries would either be of importance, or, that people of one nation or another, would be required to live on the land associated with their nationality.

In the background of this discussion is the truth of Ruth and Rahab in the geneology of Christ, and the fact that any gentile could become a Jew by joining themselves to their religious practices.

Also, I am continually noticing how Paul, again and again, changes the terms of engagement under the New Covenant, from what they were under the Old. From 'He is a Jew who is one inwardly' to 'children of Abraham' being those who 'believe', there are many other claims he makes, which I find militating against hanging on too hard, to ANYTHING from the Old Covenant.

But I'm listening. I do know that when anyone posts something in this discussion which hits my spirit as 'the truth', I will receive it. But so far, all I hear is words that have passed their use-by date. And this is not a form of anti-semetism. Jews have only one way into the blessing of God, and that is through faith in Christ Jesus. This is the thesis in Romans 9. They can reclaim the land in hope, but they will die [u]mis[/u]believing, if without [u]Him[/u].

I have a lot more Old Testament reading to do before I can adequately expand with Bible verses to back up my reasoning.

 2007/5/19 15:48





©2002-2020 SermonIndex.net
Promoting Genuine Biblical Revival.
Affiliate Disclosure | Privacy Policy