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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : 1 Corinthians 14:1 - Gifts??

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UniqueWebRev
Member



Joined: 2007/2/9
Posts: 640
Southern California

 Re:

No, Ron,

You are not alone.

Tongues these days are mostly a personal thing, not a public one. And it is a gift you must request, or it doesn't happen for real.

I detest the public display of tongues, because I think it is a sign of spiritual pride...in other words, the devil is manipulating honest people who do speak in tongues. Paul did request people to not speak carelessly or frequently, unless they were prompted of the Spirit, and there was an interpreter to boot.

I rather think that prophesying in tongues is a larger gift than the regular one, and not often given.

Ron, it's perfectly scriptural, but there are some who simply don't go there, nor are you required to.

And Paul did say that prophecy was the better gift, and in plain language, not tongues.

All the cautions are about the misuse of tongues in public. The only point of tongues for those that are not being used to prophesy is to communicate about what the Holy Spirit wants you to talk to Abba about.

And yes, I find it taxing if the Spirit doesn't prompt me to use them. This is why I am asking questions.

I also have heard, that though Tongues is a fairly freely given gift of the Holy Spirit, that there are some who ask for it, but never receive it.

In my case, it seems to be something I can use, and occasionally the Holy Spirit does want me to use, alone, with Him. But with me, it is rare.

Now when I sing in the Spirit...I can understand a bit, and the melodies I am given are lovely. But the words are very repetitious praise songs.
But I suppose God likes them anyway. In a strange way, He is having me Praise Him.

But of late, Abba just wakes me up when he needs me or wants me to sing to him regular songs that I like.

Don't worry about it. Just ask God if He want's you to have tongues, and obey if He says yes.
And if you don't want them, I doubt you'll get them. It's called inhibition, and is perfectly natural.

Blessings, Bro!

Forrest


_________________
Forrest Anderson

 2007/5/13 4:22Profile
KingJimmy
Member



Joined: 2003/5/8
Posts: 4419
Charlotte, NC

 Re:

Quote:

Am I alone in feeling uncomfortable with the word 'gibberish' or have we defined this term somewhere?



I was using the term "gibberish" more-so for arguments sake. I don't really care for the term myself. Paul preferred to liken it unto speaking like a Barbarian. Idiomatically speaking, I think gibberish would be a great dynamic equivalent.

I'm sure the thought of sounding like a Barbarian probably deflated the Corinthian ego a bit, especially since they seemed to have a false estimation of the gift so as to think one had "arrived" by speaking in tongues. Without a charismatically gifted interpreter present to make sense of the message, the congregation will be at loss to the message, even though it was from God.

Thus, to them, it would be as if a Barbarian were speaking, or as if somebody were insane, or, as I have argued, "gibberish." No doubt, God understands the message. But to God the message would never be as a Barbarian tongue since He is God :)


_________________
Jimmy H

 2007/5/13 6:41Profile









 Re: the "g" word

Quote:

Corey_H wrote:
LittleGift said
Quote:
I'm a bit puzzled by this. Glossolalia is the same as tongues, (= "tongues" in Greek) but you seem to be making a distinction



There [i]is[/i] a distinction. The "tongues" the apoststles spoke with in Acts allowed nearby witnesses to comprehend the scripture in their own language.

Contrast this to COR 14 where glossolalia's described - unintelligble gibberish.

God is not the author of confusion.

Dear Corey, and others...

You are making me cross, when you keep calling this gift gibberish. I don't [i]like[/i] being cross! :-x

There need be no confusion if you really understand what the Bible is saying on this subject, and if you are in a meeting where the genuine gift is exercised with grace and restraint, according to the principles Paul outlined.

I will repeat that genuine tongues (or glossolalia) is made up of WORDS! (unless someone happens to be speaking a language like the "click" tongue of an obscure African tribe) It is very obviously a language, NOT gibberish!

If you think it's gibberish you either weren't listening or you heard something that wasn't the real thing. It's even possible to write down the words that are spoken, though they may not be understood, even by the speaker. Although I think that would spoil it in most cases.

I read of someone who only had one word at first, and thought it was a poor thing. He kept saying "Dorian" to the Lord, "My Dorian". He hadn't a clue what it meant. But some of you Greek scholars could easily have told him (clue, my username is a small version of it)! Afterwards he was given more words and the tongues began to flow more easily.

The main difference between what happened on the Day of Pentecost and what many Christians experience is that usually the language isn't understood by those present. But it its obvious from 1Corinthians 12-14 that unknown tongues were also given in New Testament times, just as they are today. And, as in Corinth, being able to move in this gift says NOTHING about the righteousness or spiritual maturity of those who exercise it!

Therefore it would be ridiculous, as well as wrong, to boast of this gift. I'm just trying to convince you that I [i]do[/i] know what I'm talking about when I say that tongues or glossolalia, (whatever you want to call this gift, for whatever purpose its used, or whether its a known or unknown language), it is NOT gibberish!

An example of speaking in a [i]known[/i] language was an English person speaking fluent Welsh in a meeting. She had never heard the language and had no idea what she was saying. After the meeting some Welsh people came up and started talking Welsh to her, and were confused when she looked blank!

I forgive you Corey, but please don't use the "g" word any more.

Yours in Him

Jeannette

:-P

 2007/5/13 18:12









 Re:

Quote:

KingJimmy wrote:
Quote:

Am I alone in feeling uncomfortable with the word 'gibberish' or have we defined this term somewhere?



I was using the term "gibberish" more-so for arguments sake. I don't really care for the term myself. Paul preferred to liken it unto speaking like a Barbarian. Idiomatically speaking, I think gibberish would be a great dynamic equivalent.

I'm sure the thought of sounding like a Barbarian probably deflated the Corinthian ego a bit, especially since they seemed to have a false estimation of the gift so as to think one had "arrived" by speaking in tongues. Without a charismatically gifted interpreter present to make sense of the message, the congregation will be at loss to the message, even though it was from God.

Thus, to them, it would be as if a Barbarian were speaking, or as if somebody were insane, or, as I have argued, "gibberish." No doubt, God understands the message. But to God the message would never be as a Barbarian tongue since He is God :)

Hi Jimmy

Read this after sending my reply to Corey. OK I can tolerate using the "g" word in this semi technical sense :-)

Jeannette

 2007/5/13 18:15
dohzman
Member



Joined: 2004/10/13
Posts: 2132


 Re: Brother Jim

You're a Church of God minister, student?? you have as part of your very training the tenents you are to embrace is that which you now speak against. Brother you need to re-think this and find out what it is exactly you really believe. If you don't embrace the doctrine of glōssa
than you should let thoughs over you know this and find out for yourself what it is exactly you do believe about the whole of our faiths doctrine in the Holy Spirit baptism with its outward signs. Presently world wide only 51% of all penecostals believe in tongues and or profess the use of them in private or public.

There is a misuse of everything under the sun but that doesn't mean we throw the baby out with the bath water, if we do that than all preaching period must go too! So don't even go there.


_________________
D.Miller

 2007/5/13 18:45Profile









 Re:

Quote:
UniqueWebRev wrote:
...the type of tongues that was evidently given to the Apostles and Disciples, and even Mary, Jesus' mother at Pentecost (there were 120 of them waiting around for this event) seems to be the kind of tongues where the one speaking is heard and understood by everyone, regardless of their language. I would call that Pentecostal Tongues, and has nothing to do with any denomination.

Glossalalia, on the other hand, is what most people cannot understand themselves, nor are they meant to.

Oh, I see what distinction you are making. What confused me was that the word glossolalia [i]means[/i] tongues,or languages, so to me you were saying tongues are different from tongues! I tend to think of it as merely varieties of the same basic gift, as Paul said "diversities of gifts but the same Spirit".

You have a different variation of the same gift, whetehr we call it tongues or glossolalia. I think its beautiful how you asked the Lord for a tongue you could at least partly understand, and He gave you your request.

The Lord's workings with us are all so individual - specially tailored to fit each one!

Quote:
It took a few days for it to come out of my throat, like it was stuck, and then it flowed freely.

The Lord actually asked me if I was willing to receive this gift! I said no because of not wanting anything supernatural! Then realised that it's wrong to refuse a gift from someone you love - especially if he's God!

As mentioned in another thread, it was all very matter of fact. Strange words started comong into my mind. For a long time I wouldn't speak them aloud, even when alone. But with the Lord's reassurance that this really was of Him, not just my imagining words, I gradually grew braver! Singing came later, and usually the tunes aren't that special. Sometimes I find myself singing a favourite hymn and can't remember the words, or the words don't seem enough, so use tongues instead, to the same tune.

Quote:
However, I am not prompted of the Spirit to use tongues much, and then, well I can go from serious, to laughing, to crying in moments. And yes, I can speak in tongues without prompting, but I was taught to wait for the Spirit to prompt me. And frankly, if I am not prompted, it seems hard to me, as if I am trying to force something, and it is exhausting.

I know what you mean, it seems that the USE of the gift as well as the gift itself has to be in the Spirit. Makes sense when you think of those in the Bible who used a genuine gift "in the flesh", or with wrong motives. Jonah was a genuine prophet with a bad attitude, for example. I can "decide" to speak in tongues, kind of from habit, but it doesn't feel right. Another time it just flows so naturally. Like prophecy it has to be used in the right way, directed by the Lord, not just as we please.

Quote:
...I find Christians everywhere I turn, even on the phone, and my disability makes it easy to bring up what Jesus has done for me. After all, there are not many people with walkers, or using the runabouts in stores that are smiling, happy, singing, or even downright playful and silly.

I daresay I'm a bit of a spectacle, but I don't mind if it will plant a seed or water one. I rarely meet an non-Christian unless I am supposed to evangelize. But God didn't call me to speak, He called me to write, so I meet mostly Christians everywhere, and have Church everywhere.

That's lovely! Maybe one reason you aren't healed - yet - is that you are such a witness as you are!

But you are allowed a few moans if necessary, its obviously not your usual outlook on life, as it is with some people, in spite of your disability.

Love in Him

Jeannette

 2007/5/13 18:55
UniqueWebRev
Member



Joined: 2007/2/9
Posts: 640
Southern California

 Re:

Quote:

LittleGift wrote:
Quote:
...I find Christians everywhere I turn, even on the phone, and my disability makes it easy to bring up what Jesus has done for me. After all, there are not many people with walkers, or using the runabouts in stores that are smiling, happy, singing, or even downright playful and silly.

I daresay I'm a bit of a spectacle, but I don't mind if it will plant a seed or water one. I rarely meet an non-Christian unless I am supposed to evangelize. But God didn't call me to speak, He called me to write, so I meet mostly Christians everywhere, and have Church everywhere.

That's lovely! Maybe one reason you aren't healed - yet - is that you are such a witness as you are!

But you are allowed a few moans if necessary, its obviously not your usual outlook on life, as it is with some people, in spite of your disability.

Love in Him

Jeannette



I never thought of that. I always assumed it was for teaching me something, and also the result of just what happens in the flesh.

And no, it is not so bad that I can't live with it. I don't like it...who would? And I complain too much, in my opinion, but I was brought up to be a 'guy' and never show I'm suffering.

But I am glad I work at not complaining, because frankly, it makes me unhappy. And I don't like to go to unhappy places.

Mostly I see that I was given too much by God at the beginning, couldn't handle it, misused it, coudn't undo my circumstances, and asked Him to give me peace of mind and comfort of spirit. So God broke all my circumstances off me, and freed me up, but it was a lot to get over!

I'm mostly gotten there, but the 12 year journey was a !@#$%^&*()_+)(*&^%$#@!!!!! And there is still a lot left to go through.

Thanks for the new idea about God using my disability as a source of witness. I use it that way, come to think of it, but I didn't think that God might have planned that too.

Is He sneaky, or what?!

Blessings,

Forrest


_________________
Forrest Anderson

 2007/5/13 19:22Profile
KingJimmy
Member



Joined: 2003/5/8
Posts: 4419
Charlotte, NC

 Re:

Quote:

You're a Church of God minister, student?? you have as part of your very training the tenents you are to embrace is that which you now speak against. Brother you need to re-think this and find out what it is exactly you really believe. If you don't embrace the doctrine of glōssa
than you should let thoughs over you know this and find out for yourself what it is exactly you do believe about the whole of our faiths doctrine in the Holy Spirit baptism with its outward signs.



Where in my statements have I ever called into doubt the doctrine of tongues? I fully believe in them and their modern day usage. I think you have misunderstood my posts.


_________________
Jimmy H

 2007/5/13 22:51Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
What Paul is against is that such gibberish happens in the context of a public assembly without an accompanying interpretation to make sense of what was said, so as to bring about the edification of the saints.


Do you think this means an absolute ban on un-interpreted tongues in a public gathering or is this 'silence' comparative? “If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret. But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God.”
(1Corinthians 14:27-28 KJVS)Do you talk to yourself? I do and so did David and many another. I sometimes 'talk to myself' in a meeting too. Not raising my voice but adding a private 'amen' to someones preaching. I do it because I need to react or respond to what I am hearing and because, even if uttered quietly, the expressed word is more lasting than the thought word.

How about tongues in meetings then? Would Paul absolutely prohibit me from a quiet expression in tongues when I hear a prayer need or want to respond and don't quite no what to say? Perhaps 'speaking to yourself' and 'to God' has to do with volume in the context of the gathered assembly.

There are, after all, degrees of silence.“And when he had given him licence, Paul stood on the stairs, and beckoned with the hand unto the people. And when there was made [b]a great silence[/b], he spake unto them in the Hebrew tongue, saying, Men, brethren, and fathers, hear ye my defence which I make now unto you. (And when they heard that he spake in the Hebrew tongue to them, [b]they kept the more silence[/b]: and he saith,)” (Acts 21:40-22:2 KJVS)The first word for silence here is the word used by Paul in 1 Cor 14 in relation to uninterpreted tongues. However in Acts 21:40 it adds the adjective 'great'. So we have 'silence' and 'great silence'. Moving into Acts 22:2 we now have a 'greater silence'. So we have 3 levels of silence!!
1. silence (the word used by Paul in 1 cor 14)
2. great silence, as in Acts 20:44
3. even greater silence as in Acts 21:2Apparently there are at least two higher levels of silence than that enjoined upon the uninterpreted tongue utterances. ;-)

...and just to raise the temperature a little...1Tim. 2:12 (KJVS) But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. This is the word used in Acts 21:2 but WITHOUT the adjective 'great'. So apparently there is at least one degree of silence beyong this too. ;-) ;-)


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2007/5/14 5:13Profile
UniqueWebRev
Member



Joined: 2007/2/9
Posts: 640
Southern California

 Re: Tongues in Public

Ron,

I have often been in a meeting with a Pastor teaching, and found myself both singing under my breath, or speaking in tongues, barely moving my lips, yet still seemingly able to hear the teaching, and praise God at the same time.

What I object to is what I see on TV - crowds of peoples speaking in tongues, emotionalizing all over the place, the Pastor peppering his speaches with the same great, round, holy sounds...disgusting!

Oddly, what I think is so interesting is what happens in a synagogue - they are relatively noisy places, with the men praying quietly to themselves, and rocking back and forth...davening, I believe it is called, while the women are talking and laughing together, and paying no attention whatsoever except during the ritual bits the Rabbi or anyone else for that matter, is speaking, and those in the synagogue making the appropriate response. And then it goes back to generalized chaos again, at least in comparison to our polite, church services.

I heard a description once of the women being held to silence in the synagogues by Paul, because, being seperated in the orthodox manner, women on one side, men on the other, women were getting up, and asking questions of the men, while the teaching was going on. And this was what Paul objected to. Women, so far as I know, have never been silent in even the most orthodox synagogues.

This amused me, since services at synagogues are not quiet affairs, and then you start talking about three different kinds of silence?

In our churches, if you speak quietly under your breath in response to the Spirit, in tongues or out, I doubt anyone would notice, or if they did, be bothered. I know that sometimes I would have to move a few chairs away from people when singing under my breath, since the melody was a bit more discernable than almost breathless speech.

The oddest thing to me about tongues is that you can listen to another speak, and speak in tongues at the same time, for the two don't seem to affect the other. Total disassociation of the mind from tongues.

Anyone else ever notice this?

Blessings,

Forrest



_________________
Forrest Anderson

 2007/5/14 6:40Profile





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