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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : 1 Corinthians 14:1 - Gifts??

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 Re:

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Corey_H wrote:
Whenever I've witnessed glossolalia, it's been menaingless gibberish - and when it's been translated it's been nothing but blessings, profits, and good news.

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I have only heard demonic tongues once or twice, but it was so horrible I didn't want to listen long enough to notice if there were words in it. There probably were!



I've heard this kind, too. But keep in mind that Buddhists, Hindus and many other mystics speak in types of glossolalia, too - and they don't all sound "evil". Just like Delilah didn't look evil.

Hi Corey, There are several points you mentioned that I wanted to comment on, but the last part seems most important at the moment!

First it does seem that you have never witnessed the real Holy Spirit gift, so it's understandable that you lump it all together as being not of God.

Second, demonic tongues don't necessarily [i]sound[/i] horrible to the outward ear. I'm talking about the revulsion that one feels [i]spiritually[/i] when something is demonic, because of the Holy Spirit who dwells in us).

You also said:
Quote:
when it's been translated it's been nothing but blessings, profits, and good news

I've often heard this kind of "interpretation", of both true and counterfeit tongues.

There was one occasion (mentioned somewhere on another thread) when someone gave a beautiful utterance in tongues - really in the Holy Spirit. It was obviously meant to be interpreted. My heart leapt, and shouted AMEN! as the utterance came, though I didn't understand the meaning. It was like a trumpet call to the church, and I sensed that it was a strong, challenging word of exhortation.

There was a short silence, so I began to ask the Lord for the interpretation.

Then someone else "interpreted" but it wasn't the true interpretation. It was, as you said, "nothing but blessings, profits, and good news". It sounded good but it just wasn't what the Lord was saying!

Again I asked the Lord for the [i]true[/i] interpretation, and it was as if He shrugged ruefully, and said "Forget it! They won't listen now"

The problem I believe is that honest souls like yourself hear and sense the shallow, man-made, hype, and frank demonic counterfeit and get put off the whole thing. Like someone deciding not to use banknotes any more because of being cheated in the past with counterfeit currency!

It's so tragic, because the real thing is [i]also[/i] out there!

Please believe it Brother, you could be missing out on precious tools of the Holy Spirit, that we will all need in the days that are coming.

Love in Jesus

Jeannette

 2007/5/12 16:51









 Re:

Quote:
Ormly said:
JESUS CHRIST, THE BAPTIZER

Thank you for reminding us that we need to focus on the Giver, not the gift.

At least I think that's what you meant! I don't always quite understand what you are wanting to convey. :-?

Blessings

jeannette

 2007/5/12 16:59









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UniqueWebRev wrote:I can speak in tongues, and sing in tongues, and they are two different languages. I can't understand a word of the spken tongues, but I asked God to understand what I sing about. The language changed, and seems now to be some form of archaic French, so that I, with some traiing in that language, at least catch the drift of the songs.

Hi again Forrest

It is lovely that you find you can worship in that way. That is certainly one use of true tongues.

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As for the glossalalia, I got that thrown at me at my baptism, and the devil used it to scare me away from the church and draw me into the occult. Consequently, I see little benefit in it for myself.

I'm a bit puzzled by this. Glossolalia is the same as tongues, (= "tongues" in Greek) but you seem to be making a distinction :-?

What did they do at your baptism? (You don't have to answer, but it sounds as if it wasn't a good experience!)

I've heard people try to get someone to speak in tongues by telling them to "repeat after me", which is all wrong. I also had someone pray for me and put their hand on my head, (quivering the hand violently at the same time, in what they seemed to imagine was spiritual excitement!)and pushing hard to try and make me fall down. Being a stubborn cuss, and not feeling like collapsing on that occasion, I planted my feet and refused to fall down, so the chap gave up after a while!

I wonder if the Holy Spirit would honour such a performance with His presence. It might possibly even pass on an evil spirit if the person being prayed for is especially vulnerable for some reason. Although I think that the time it happened to me was merely the foolishness of man, trying earnestly to make me "get the power".

Love in Him

Jeannette

 2007/5/12 17:21









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Quote:

philologos wrote:
The 1 Cor 12 section has these verses...1Cor. 12:1 (KJVS) Now concerning spiritual [i]gifts[/i], brethren, I would not have you ignorant.

1Cor. 12:4 (KJVS) Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.The first of these references does not have the word 'gifts' in the original, but the word 'gift' does appear in verse 4. However the word 'gift' in verse 4 is part of a threefold description of 'the manifestation of the Spirit'...“Now there are diversities of [b]gifts[/b], but the same Spirit. And there are differences of [b]administrations[/b], but the same Lord. And there are diversities of [b]operations[/b], but it is the same God which worketh all in all. But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.” (1Corinthians 12:4-7 KJVS)
In this section Paul is turning from practical and human matters to those which are 'spiritual'. It has become the norm now for Pentecostals and Charismatics to think that when Paul speaks of the spiritual things he is speaking about the 'gifts'. I prefer to think that he is referring to 'gifts and ministries and functions'. To me these are all part of the 'manifestation of the Spirit'.

The key thing is that it is the Holy Spirit, manifesting or revealing his presence in the assembly, this presence is not only seen in what we term 'the gifts' but also in the 'ministries and functions'. All three are 'spiritual things' and all three are the diverse ways in which the Spirit reveals his presence in the assembly.

To make that clear... I think in 1 Cor 12:1 when Paul says 'the spiritual things..' he is not only speaking about the listed 9 'gifts' but to every manifestation of the Spirit, including those manifestations of the Spirit evidenced in 'ministries and functions'.

A great point made there! Thanks, we often don't think of putting these three things together.

People talk about the nine gifts because there happen to be 9 in the list. There must be others. Supernatural strength for example, like Samson?

Jeannette

 2007/5/12 17:25









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UniqueWebRev wrote: Tongues as prophecy must be something different, but I've never heard of an instance of it happening to anyone I know at any church. Does it really happen often, or is it a rare thing?

Depends what meetings you attend! I don''t think its especially rare.

Paul talks about "different kinds of tongues". I would interpret that to mean different languages and also different kinds of [i]uses[/i] for this gift.

Quite often one can tell, on hearing (genuine) tongues, what the purpose is. You said yourself that you use this gift in private worship, and that is one use. so is public worship. I shall never forget the first time I heard a congregation singing together in tongues. I didn't have that gift then, and was a bit scared of it at first, (just because it was strange and "supernatural", not because it was really scary), but this was like being in the centre of a giant harp, sounding out the glory of God - a foretaste of the worship of heaven. Usually this seems not to need interpretation, although someone may receive a song in a known language as interpretation. (I've heard that, though never had it myself).

Another function of tongues is prayer and intercession. Often we don't know what the real need is, or we run out of words to express what is on our heart, so the Lord gives us words. It sounds different from worship. And prophecy is different again, though its impossible to explain the difference, one often just knows that its God speaking, rather than us praying.

I've almost never given anything in tongues (at least publically) that needs interpretation, but one time it was obviously prayer, not prophecy, and I had to speak it out loud. There was no interpretation at the time, but later in the meeting a young man prayed and I knew (don't ask me how) that this was the interpretation.

Perhaps this kind of use, tongues and interpretation, is as teamwork, in the church, or maybe the tongue triggers off a prophecy in someone's heart, which isn't an actual interpretation of the tongue. I don't really know, these are just observations from practical experience of this gift's use.

Quote:
And on top of those questions, is the ability to interpret dreams part of prophecy? For often, when people tell me their dreams and visions, I instantly hear an interpretation of it. But I have never prayed for prophetical gifts, so I don't understand why this happens to me.

This shows how flexible spiritual gifts are. Would one class this as prophecy, or interpretation? Do we really have to categorise it? Amazing that you actually [i]hear[/i] the interpretation of a dream as the person shares it. This gift isn't mentioned in the New Testament. (Paul's dream of the man of Macedonia gave them guidance, but the interpretation was so clear that time that it didn't need a special gift.) It quite often comes in the Old Testament of course. Joseph and Daniel had a special gifting of dream interpretation, similar to yours.

In Him

Jeannette

 2007/5/12 17:56









 Re:

LittleGift said

Quote:
I'm a bit puzzled by this. Glossolalia is the same as tongues, (= "tongues" in Greek) but you seem to be making a distinction



There [i]is[/i] a distinction. The "tongues" the apoststles spoke with in Acts allowed nearby witnesses to comprehend the scripture in their own language.

Contrast this to COR 14 where glossolalia's described - unintelligble gibberish.

God is not the author of confusion.

 2007/5/12 21:03
KingJimmy
Member



Joined: 2003/5/8
Posts: 4419
Charlotte, NC

 Re:

Quote:

Contrast this to COR 14 where glossolalia's described - unintelligble gibberish.

God is not the author of confusion.



Indeed, 1 Cor 14 does describe untinellgible gibberish, and 1 Cor 14 describes this as one of the gifts of the Holy Spirit, known as tongues. And Paul is not against such gibberish. What Paul is against is that such gibberish happens in the context of a public assembly without an accompanying interpretation to make sense of what was said, so as to bring about the edification of the saints. Otherwise, if nobody with the gift of interpretation is present, the tongue speaker will sound as a Barbarian to the rest of the congregation, for, nobody will understand him. And if nobody can understand him, what is the point of him standing up in a public assembly to speak? And God forbid everybody does this at one time. Such will result in confusion.

That is why Paul says each person is to wait their turn and not speak on top of each other. Paul never doubts the genuineness of their gifting to speak in tongues or prophesy. All he does is call for some better sense in the expression of those gifts in a public assembly.


_________________
Jimmy H

 2007/5/12 23:41Profile
ADisciple
Member



Joined: 2007/2/3
Posts: 835
Alberta, Canada

 Re:

I am bearing witness with what LittleGift and KingJimmy are saying.
Tongues is real, and a beautiful gift, to be recieved with thanks from the Giver.
Of course there is the question of how much of what we come across is pure, and real. There is a lot of the counterfeit out there.
But as the old saying goes, you never hear of a counterfeit three dollar bill: no such thing as a real three dollar bill.
But there are lots of counterfeit twenties and hundreds out there.
If you can get a copy of What Really Happened At Asuza Street, and read Frank Bartleman's acccount of when he first began to speak in tongues, and the "release" it brought him into... what a precious gift!

AD


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Allan Halton

 2007/5/13 0:11Profile
UniqueWebRev
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Joined: 2007/2/9
Posts: 640
Southern California

 Re:

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LittleGift wrote:
Quote:
Quote:
UniqueWebRev wrote:I can speak in tongues, and sing in tongues, and they are two different languages. I can't understand a word of the spoken tongues, but I asked God to understand what I sing about. The language changed, and seems now to be some form of archaic French, so that I, with some training in that language, at least catch the drift of the songs.




Quote:
Hi again Forrest

It is lovely that you find you can worship in that way. That is certainly one use of true tongues.


Quote:

Quote:
As for the glossalalia, I got that thrown at me at my baptism, and the devil used it to scare me away from the church and draw me into the occult. Consequently, I see little benefit in it for myself.




Quote:
I'm a bit puzzled by this. Glossolalia is the same as tongues, (= "tongues" in Greek) but you seem to be making a distinction :-?



I wish there was a term for it, but the type of tongues that was evidently given to the Apostles and Disciples, and even Mary, Jesus' mother at Pentecost (there were 120 of them waiting around for this event) seems to be the kind of tongues where the one speaking is heard and understood by everyone, regardless of their language. I would call that Pentecostal Tongues, and has nothing to do with any denomination.

Glossalalia, on the other hand, is what most people cannot understand themselves, nor are they meant to. I can't find a church that suits me anywhere nearby, although granted, there are at least 70 to explore, and I don't have the endurance to test them all these days. So, consequently, I have little experience of corporate tongues in worship.

I am blessed by the Holy Spirit to receive songs of all kind from Him, in English, and the ancient French I can only partly understand, although I never was fluent in the modern kind. But I know it isn't modern french, because the verb endings are different from all the Latin languages.

The songs I receive I sing immediately into a tape recorder I keep at hand for this purpose, because I don't have the memory to hold them for long. I figure that I get to use them when I need them, and they are saved up for when I find someone who needs songs and lyrics, and will do the orchestration, which is very difficult for me, never having been trained in it. The fact that I can do it at all is a tribute to the Holy Spirit, who makes me understand what I have never been taught.

Quote:
What did they do at your baptism? (You don't have to answer, but it sounds as if it wasn't a good experience!)



It wasn't. I only went to two churches briefly when growing up, Calvary Chapel at age 7 for about two months, and a differnt church at 15 for about three months, but long enough to understand what Baptism was about, and that I wanted it. The church I went to in my teens, was, I think, Foursquare Gospel, although I could be wrong.

Anyway, they expected me to come out of the pool in California that summer evening speaking in tongues. Unfortunately, they forgot to tell me about tongues of any kind, and in the evening light, at 15, I was scared to death. I babbled something to satisfy them, then cleared out completely. They looked evil in the reflected lights in the water, and Lucifer grabbed me and ran with me.

Fortunately, I did get baptised, and Jesus stayed with me (my testimony is on page two of Miracles that Follow the Plough).

Eventually, after I re-dedicated, I received a tape from a ministry that told how to receive tongues, and I was willing to experience anything. Anyway I called them, did what they asked me to do in getting rid of anything that might be Satanic in my house, which was a lot, since I had a fine collection of antique Tarot Cards, and a superb occult library. I think I may even have cast out the house, then called them back, and prayed with them.

It took a few days for it to come out of my throat, like it was stuck, and then it flowed freely. However, I am not prompted of the Spirit to use tongues much, and then, well I can go from serious, to laughing, to crying in moments. And yes, I can speak in tongues without prompting, but I was taught to wait for the Spirit to prompt me. And frankly, if I am not prompted, it seems hard to me, as if I am trying to force something, and it is exhausting.

I have so much from God already, and spend most of my time with Him, or talking about Him, that tongues may be less necessary for me, but I can't tell for sure. Consequently, my very deep interest in this thread.


Quote:
I've heard people try to get someone to speak in tongues by telling them to "repeat after me", which is all wrong. I also had someone pray for me and put their hand on my head, (quivering the hand violently at the same time, in what they seemed to imagine was spiritual excitement!)and pushing hard to try and make me fall down. Being a stubborn cuss, and not feeling like collapsing on that occasion, I planted my feet and refused to fall down, so the chap gave up after a while!



I know, I can't let myself go either, and now, I don't like strangers touching me...I don't know their motives or their spiritual base, and with getting out of the house being a bit of a pain, I don't seek out Christians in Church. But I find them all over the place - I think that God sets this up, partly because my ministry is to the non-church going relatives of those that attend church. I find Christians everywhere I turn, even on the phone, and my disability makes it easy to bring up what Jesus has done for me. After all, there are not many people with walkers, or using the runabouts in stores that are smiling, happy, singing, or even downright playful and silly.

I daresay I'm a bit of a spectacle, but I don't mind if it will plant a seed or water one. I rarely meet an non-Christian unless I am supposed to evangelize. But God didn't call me to speak, He called me to write, so I meet mostly Christians everywhere, and have Church everywhere.

Quote:
I wonder if the Holy Spirit would honour such a performance with His presence. It might possibly even pass on an evil spirit if the person being prayed for is especially vulnerable for some reason. Although I think that the time it happened to me was merely the foolishness of man, trying earnestly to make me "get the power".



I think this is a real danger, and never attempt to touch anyone I don't know well. I've even come to dislike handshakes, because I don't trust strangers to be right with God, not even the most Christian seeming of them.

Thanks for your help, dear one.

Blessings,

Forrest



_________________
Forrest Anderson

 2007/5/13 3:39Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
Indeed, 1 Cor 14 does describe untinellgible gibberish


Am I alone in feeling uncomfortable with the word 'gibberish' or have we defined this term somewhere? Gibberish is usually unintelligable to the hearer and perhaps even to the speaker. The tongues of 1 Cor 14 may be unintelligable to the speaker and to the human hearers but he 'that speaks in an unknown tongues speaks to God' to whom it is not unintelligable... so I'm not sure that 'gibberish' is the right word.

Gibberish is a kind of failure in communication. He who speaks in an unknown tongue is not failing to communicate to the target of the communication, which (who) is God.


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2007/5/13 3:52Profile





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