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strawrifle
Member



Joined: 2007/2/3
Posts: 139
uk

 why im not right with God and cant get round it!

this was a conversation i had with a friend,its rather rambling, but i think it explains why i cant get right with God as m,uch as i try the plan seems flawed and i'm annoyed at God,its my side of a yahoo chat


andy : the plan seems off
andy : and we pay
andy : flawed
andy : that the word
andy : Hes up there in this perfect harmony of 3
andy : and decides to make us
andy : knowing we and satan will mess up,but he still does it he still creates us knowing what will happen
andy : so we have this perfect God beyond fault who makes us knowin some wont make heaven
andy : odd
andy : but the kicker is this He blames us for not choosing him, when he knew we wouldn't in the first places
andy : grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr
andy : why did a God want to create us knowing the results this would mean..he wanted to create us so badly he would risk some to hell i dont get that!!


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andy

 2007/5/8 11:08Profile
sermonindex
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Joined: 2002/12/11
Posts: 37105
"Pilgrim and Sojourner." - 1 Peter 2:11

Online!
 Re: why im not right with God and cant get round it!

Quote:
andy : the plan seems off
andy : and we pay
andy : flawed
andy : that the word
andy : Hes up there in this perfect harmony of 3
andy : and decides to make us
andy : knowing we and satan will mess up,but he still does it he still creates us knowing what will happen
andy : so we have this perfect God beyond fault who makes us knowin some wont make heaven
andy : odd
andy : but the kicker is this He blames us for not choosing him, when he knew we wouldn't in the first places
andy : grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr
andy : why did a God want to create us knowing the results this would mean..he wanted to create us so badly he would risk some to hell i dont get that!!



I would listen to these audio sermons to encourage you there is "victory" over sin and the devil:

[b]Reality in the Christian Life by Zac Poonen[/b]
http://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/visit.php?lid=4272


[b]Knowing The Cross of Christ by Alan Martin[/b]
http://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/visit.php?lid=15110

[b]The True Grace Of God by Alan Martin[/b]
http://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/visit.php?lid=15219


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SI Moderator - Greg Gordon

 2007/5/8 11:18Profile
InTheLight
Member



Joined: 2003/7/31
Posts: 2734
Phoenix, Arizona USA

 Re: why im not right with God and cant get round it!

Quote:
why did a God want to create us knowing the results this would mean..he wanted to create us so badly he would risk some to hell i dont get that!!



Great question. Difficult to answer but, there must have been great tension when God decided to create. His father heart desired love and fellowship with His creation. He wanted love to be the highest principle of the universe. But genuine love is never forced, God grants freewill in order to protect that high principle of love. Enter the tension.

As soon as God created a universe where real love was the highest principle, the possibilty of evil, pain, and suffering was there because freedom is essential to love. If there was no possibility of evil then there would be no real love, since love was the reason God created, it is something God was not willing to sacrifice.

In Christ,

Ron


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Ron Halverson

 2007/5/8 11:47Profile
theopenlife
Member



Joined: 2007/1/30
Posts: 926


 Re:

Strawrifle, one of the best answers to that question that I have come across came to me while listening to David Brianerd's journal...

You can here the first 3 parts here, the first is the one that deals with this question:

[url=http://www.theopenlife.com/freemedia/audio/lifeofdavidbrainerd_1.mp3]Part 1[/url]
[url=http://www.theopenlife.com/freemedia/audio/lifeofdavidbrainerd_2.mp3]Part 2[/url]
[url=http://www.theopenlife.com/freemedia/audio/lifeofdavidbrainerd_3.mp3]Part 3[/url]

In short, our doubts about God's plan display a fundimental distrust of His goodness and wisdom. We are called to believe He is holy. That means He is without fault, not merely because He sets the standard but because whatever He chooses really IS the best and most perfect choice out of all possible choices. Only God can impart that faith.

God bless you. By the way, your question is more carefully answered by Paul. Read Ephesians.

 2007/5/8 13:47Profile
ccchhhrrriiisss
Member



Joined: 2003/11/23
Posts: 4499


 Re: why im not right with God and cant get round it!

Hi strawrifle...

Have you ever knelt down and explained this to the Lord in prayer? At one point, I was an agnostic. Eventually, I explained my doubts and misunderstandings to the Lord. I suppose that one of my problems was my attempt to "figure out" the mind, intentions and reasonings of the Lord. "Job" tried this in the Bible -- and God eventually answered him. He kindly put Job in his place by questioning him (in Job chapters 38-42).

I will be praying for you as you continue on your spiritual journey. My own spiritual journey climaxed during my summer of the 10th grade. I knew that I didn't KNOW God. One night as I stood in a field at summer camp, I told God, "I would trade all that I am, and all that I will ever be -- if I could just know you and be your friend." My life has never been the same.

Matthew 11:28-30
Jeremiah 29:11-13
Matthew 5:6-10

:-)


_________________
Christopher

 2007/5/8 14:18Profile









 Re: why im not right with God and cant get round it!


theopenlife said

Quote:
..That means He is without fault, not merely because He sets the standard but because whatever He chooses really IS the best and most perfect choice out of all possible choices. Only God can impart that faith...

Andy,

The other thing to remember is that the Lamb was slain [i]before[/i] the foundation of the world. This means that in God's heart, the answer to sin and the need He knew mankind would experience, was already in place in principle. I don't believe we are here are puppets simply doing what He wants us to do.

There is a genuine battle going on for our souls, because His arch-enemy, though defeated now in fact, is not going to make it easy for any one to get into fellowship with God. Actually, God has set things up so we cannot fail if we are willing to receive His answers. But this means laying down [i]all[/i] our human faculties, and receiving His offers of wisdom to fear Him, and a new heart to believe Him.

 2007/5/9 15:36









 Re: why im not right with God and cant get round it!

Andy, ask yourself the question, What would it matter if you did know any of the questions that you asked? You wouldn't be satisfied with the answers, because you would be asking more like a little child would after each answer given, his constant reply is "why"?

Your desire to know will never cease, therefore it's pointless to put God on trial. God has accepted you just the way you are, why can't you just accept Him the way He is?

I could begin to open to you the wisdom of God and I have the knowledge and understanding to answer your questions, but I can tell you that your questions are not coming from you, but someone else that is keeping you from receiving Christ. And that someone else is called the devil, he is putting these questions in your mind to doubt God thereby not receiving Christ.

God doesn't just dwell "Up there", he dwells in flawed vessels called man, more specifically, born again Christians. His desire is to live in you, to make you a son that you can call Him Father.

Jesus Christ was born into this world by virgin birth, He was born in the likeness of sinful flesh. That thru Him, you Andy, might be saved. And what difference would it make to you if you knew that God made some for everlasting life and others for hell? Wouldn't it be better if you knew that you were saved from hell?

Arguing over that God is unfair in what He does with His creation is foolishness, what can you do about it?

God is a righteous God, therefore in knowing that He is righteous, there are somethings that you and I don't know about why He does what He does. Remember He is righteous, that simply means that what proceeds from Him is righteousness. He may do a righteous act, but we may see it as evil. We don't know the in's and out's of what He sees behind closed doors, behind the scenes. He is a righteous Judge, He wieghs the balances in peoples lives, He moves nations, He tears down one country and builds another up.

Throw your questions away, they won't do you any good, and drop to your knees and ask the Father to forgive you for doubting Him and receive Jesus Christ into your life. Acknowledge that you are a sinner in need of a saviour, and He will save you from your sins. Trust me on this, your questions will subside instantly, there will not be any doubt, exibit faith that He will save you by His grace.

Questions without answers is a torment, God has made a way of escape, receive Him today.

 2007/5/9 16:54









 Re: why im not right with God and cant get round it!

Hi Andy

I'm not quite sure, from what you said, whether you are already born again, but having doubts, or if you don't yet really know the Lord.

Either way doubts, or even railing at God that "it isn't fair!" aren't necessarily a huge problem. Better to get the doubts, and even the anger, out in the open with Him, as was said. Tell Him how you feel, and expect an answer (maybe directly, but probably through the Bible).

Even if, as with Job, He replies with something like, "Stand up like a man! Here I am, if you really want to question Me! Were you there when I made the earth? YOu think you know all about everything?..." (very paraphrased version of Job chapters 38-39!)

You can't quarrel with God unless you first believe He exists, and have some sort of relationship going with Him - even if you aren't quite "there" yet regarding what Christians call new birth.

I have a feeling that the Lord was smiling a little, in an understanding, Fatherly way, at your "rant".

Honestly, I don't get the sense that you are really rebelling against Him, or anything too serious, though it obviously makes you unhappy or you wouldn't have brought it up.

Don't give up, press on, and talk to the Lord about how you feel - He has broad shoulders and can take it!

Then let Him show you what He wants you to see.

Remember, Job never got any answers to his questions or his cry of "It's not fair!"

But he got what he really needed - an encounter with God Himself!


Blessings


Jeannette

 2007/5/10 17:26
Rahman
Member



Joined: 2004/3/24
Posts: 1374


 God Does as HE Pleases ...



Hi Andy ...

Holy Spirit has not left me alone about your post since you first posted it, and when i awoke this a.m. with your post on my mind i figured i'd better obey ...

Bro i've been where you are, and even after 25+ years of salvation some "whys" about God's ways still creep in ... The only thing now is such ?'s are pretty much dismissed just as qiuckly as they formulate ... And here's why ... Some on this forum have attempted to reason with you regarding your ?'s, but i'm gonna give it to you as stark and as honest as (i believe) Holy Spirit has brought it home to me ...

[u][b]---GOD DOES WHAT HE WANTS!!!---[/b][/u]

... and if you allow Holy Spirit to minister to you via Scripture He'll get you past your self, your logic, and to this very truth ... And if you can't, or don't, i'm here to tell you that the loss of relationship, via faith in Christ, will be to your detriment, but it won't change the fact that God has, still, and will continue to do His own will, and His own plan, whether you, i, or anyone else understands, approves of, or likes it ... This in essence is the bottom line!

This is pretty much how Holy Spirit ministered it to me via the books of Job and Jonah ... Job was a good man, doing all that God wanted, but yet God, because of satan, allowed the devil to take him out for a test drive ... This logically, and in the natural makes no sense whatsoever, i mean why even bother? ... But the bottom line is we all (everything) belongs to God, and within His own will, way and plan, particularly regarding we humans, are expendabe and/or expandable ... Think about it, there is to be a new heavens and a new earth, the FORMER things passing away ... Why? ... Why not with just a single thought renew this old one? ... Because that's not how God wants to do it, no matter how much we might think it a complete waste or expending of far to much of His energy ... Job was a good man, a good father, a Godly man, tho God allowed satan to test Job except to death, his children in God's allowance were expendable ... Ouch! ... Question God via our own logic on this, and we set ourselves up (dangerously) to be God's judge (instead of vice-versa), which Job perplexed tho in a more nicer and humble way than you ... Then what did God do? ... He pulled rank on him ...

[b]Job.38[/b]
[1] Then the LORD answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said,
[2] Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge?
[3] Gird up now thy loins like a man; for I will demand of thee, and answer thou me.
[4] Where wast thou when I .................................?


Where were you Andy, where was i, or anyone else who dares to Grrrrrrrrrrr at God because His higher ways/plan don't fit our puny logic or understanding? ... i grant you in the natural much of God and His methodolgy doesn't pass our impotent muster, but He already knew there would be some of us prone to trying it anyway, so He answered us before time in Job, and then even showed us in Jonah, for those of us born-again who think that we can escape Him if He's picked us out for a duty that doesn't quite measure up to our liking (or understanding), that yep He's also capable of putting us in a spiritually expandable situation to bring home the point that not only are our arms to short, but our minds as well, to box with Him, and win! ...


[b]Isa.40[/b]
[10] Behold, the Lord GOD will come with strong hand, and his arm shall rule for him: behold, his reward is with him, and his work before him.
[11] He shall feed his flock like a shepherd: he shall gather the lambs with his arm, and carry them in his bosom, and shall gently lead those that are with young.
[12] Who hath measured the waters in the hollow of his hand, and meted out heaven with the span, and comprehended the dust of the earth in a measure, and weighed the mountains in scales, and the hills in a balance?
[13] Who hath directed the Spirit of the LORD, or being his counseller hath taught him?
[14] With whom took he counsel, and who instructed him, and taught him in the path of judgment, and taught him knowledge, and shewed to him the way of understanding?


[b]Rom.11[/b] (Another tough scripture)
[34] For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counseller?
[35] Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again?
[36] For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen.


Andy He's the Alpha (master of our beginning) and the Omega (master of our end), including that of all mankind ... Romans chapters 9 (& 11) still makes my head hurt when i try to understand them, particularly when it's placed in juxstaposion of the Great White Throne Judgement ... Do i understand just how vessels of mercy, and vessels of wrath are chosen in God's soveriegnty? ... Nope, not by a long shot, but let me tell you what i do know ...

[b]1 -[/b] i know i'm no longer interested in even attempting to understand all about God ... That'll never happen on this side because we all see thru a glass darkly, and quite frankly i may not even understand it all on the other side, but i also doubt very seriously that in His glorious presence i'll even be entertaining some of the foolishness i entertain at times in my mind now ...

[b]2 -[/b] i know God does what He wants, and that's now all fine with me ... He's my Creator, and i (you, all) His created ... i don't have to understand His ways/will/plan past the example of who and what i'm supposed to be and do toward Him as exemplified in His Son Christ Jesus, for Jesus said He came to do the will of, and to glorify, the Father, and all the record that He's given us in His Scripture, in particular the NT ... The OT is a wonderful inspiration of faith, and history for me, but as a NT saint i find my do's and don'ts clearly spelled out in the Gospels and the NT ... i am before Him as a little child who believes in "because He said so", and i seek Him because He's a rewarder of we that do ...

[b]3 -[/b] Other than because it pleased Him i don't know WHY God created in the first place, knowing all that He knew, and having to send Christ to die ... And while it might seem, as you put it, a flawed plan, it still does'nt stop the fact that it's His salvation plan whether we understand, or like it ...

[u][b]--- AND IT'S THE ONLY SALVATION PLAN IN TOWN!!!---[/b][/u]

... As i said i don't understand Romans 9 per-se, but here's what i know from it, that i'm a saved by His grace and the blood of Jesus Christ, born-again vessel of mercy, and that's all i need to understand in permanently affixing my adoration, love, loyalty, worship and praise to God our Father, the Lord Jesus Christ and the Lord Creator Holy Spirit is this ... In light of your ?'s i pray that you at least enjoy this position too, and that within it eventually will surrender to ALL TRUST in Him past your anger at not understanding Him ...

[b]4 -[/b] i know i'm commisioned to spread the Gospel, seed throwing, watering too unless He cause another to, in preparation of His TRUTH falling into the spiritual ears/hearts/minds of other vessels of mercy that He will cause to grow ...

[b]5 -[/b] i know that i'm supposed to move in the Spirit when Holy Spirit says move ...

Here's a few links i found in search of "God Does What He Wants To" ... Not much on this subject, but plenty on "What Does God Want Us To Do" (Which is truly the chief question we should all be pre-occupied with ...


[b]God Does Whatever He Wants To[/b]
http://www.torahbytes.org/64-15.htm

[b]GOD'S WAYS[/b]
http://www.pausetoponder.org/godsway.htm


[b]TESTIMONY:[/b]
If you can bear it any further i'd like to share with you from 1991 my last "why" at God ... Why my God fearing dad would die @ 63, but my slacker of a grand-dad (his dad) would live to 93? ... That really irratated me, and it became worse when a saint pretty much said to me that my Dad was expendable at a crucial time in His continual spiritual expansion of myself (God has me in a Pentecostal circle right now and so things like this do get said) ... i must note also in the telling that at the time i was in a pretty good backslidden condition, and it was my dad's death that was very instrumental in snatching me back to Christian reality ...

But here's what became the most important lesson in my alienating from Him, i subsequently found that without Him i'm lost, that i need Him far more than He needs me ... He's my foundation, my Heavenly Father of whom i gave far more honor and glory to my earthly dad than i had Him, and so i had to repent ... i've oft been ridiculed by unbeliever's as one who is weak, and in needs of a crutch in my life when it comes to my faith in Him and Scripture, and i tell them in a heartbeat, to they're amazement, that they're more than right ... i am totally dependant on Him regardless of whether i totally understand Him or not, and i try my best to acknowledge Him in all my ways ... You know since i'm His i believe God is mindful of me to the point that when i'm in error, He will discipline me to His rightness, He says so in scripture ... But here's one last thing i know, me, you, or anybody else can't stop God, or His plan, just because we decide to throw a "i don't understand You tantrum" ...

On this plane, i've come to realize that like Job even tho i may be trying my best to please Him, only He knows if and when i, or my loved ones could be expendable in His will/plan, and i can assure you that all of us are expandable if He decides ...

In closing here's some imagery you might look out while you reponder you Grrrrrrrrr at God, and i pray Holy Spirit will bestow His peace upon you that surpasses all understanding, or lack thereof ...

[b]Hubble Imagery[/b]
http://hubblesite.org/gallery/wallpaper/

[b]As He asked Job ... Let Him ask you: Andy where were you? ... [/b]

Blessings in Christ Jesus, He who is our best example of doing the will of the One that sent Him ... Amen

 2007/5/11 14:36Profile









 Re: why im not right with God and cant get round it!

May God help me to write with compassion. Strawrifle, anytime someone objects, disagrees, or has a problem with what the Bible teaches about God, it shows their idolatry. Idolatry is making a god in our own mind that where more comfortable with. The issue for you isn't so much that you "can't get around it" but that you won't get around it.

The Bible teaches that God actually creates evil and yet He is not evil. That He creates man, full well knowing all things that would take place, yet holds man accountable. It teaches that a man cannot be saved unless God grants that man salvation. The man may desire and do many things in hopes that God will see and be influenced but unless God, apart from the man, chooses to save him, he will forever be under a curse, forever taste the wrath of God, forever be cutoff from God and forever suffer hell.

You may think God creating man, knowing He would sin, to be a hard thing to digest BUT here is the harder thing to digest: that God would do that so that the Son would eventually strip Himself of glory and wrap Himself in our flesh and blood to die as a criminal under the wrath of His Father. To bear our sins upon Himself. To die such a bloody, grusome, and vicious death. The Son of God bearing such shame! That should be hard to digest, not the fact that God would create man, cause man to do all things including sin, so that He could fullfill His purpose in then redeeming Him and doing something more glorious than sin is more damnable.

Those are what the all-loving infinite God has chosen to reveal to us in His Word. So the problem lies in the fact that you won't get around it because you hate a God like that. Your god is not the God of the Bible if that isn't His character because thats what the Bible teaches. You need to repent from your idolatry and your unbelief and come humbly before God by prayer and ask Him to open your eyes to who He is and open your understanding to what His Word teaches. Repent and believe.

 2007/5/11 15:46





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