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Discussion Forum : Revivals And Church History : Christian Perfection

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philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Christian Perfection

Greg writes I personally think this is a great topic and very worthy of discussion, and I believe it would be very edifying to go through some facets of this great truth of Sanctification.

Ron, I would love for you to clearly lay out a brief outline of this doctrine from your standpoint, I have an admiration for 'holiness' preachers as you have declared and at my age and walk in God I am still allowing God to mold me and led me into all truth. I am very excited about this and think its great to know more. I would love for us to continue this in a more open-minded viewpoint without making personal accusations to each others credibility for believing something at this point.

For you my brother? Anything. I have highlighted your post above for my personal discipline. It will have some very definite advantages. It will enable me to talk about my standpoint rather than having to align myself with any of my heroes in this matter. This really will be ‘my standpoint’. Readers should understand that the doctrines found here will not be Wesleyan, Reformed, Keswick, Instant, Progressive doctrine; they will be mine. I bear full responsibility for them and the likes of Fox, Wesley, Clark, William and Catherine Booth, Brengle, Finney, Chambers, Cook, Campbell Morgan, AB Simpson, Leonard Ravenhill, Duncan Campbell should not be blamed for any statements found here. I am deeply indebted to these men and quick to rush to their defence, but I do not fit into any of these pigeon-holes. Some may see my comments and immediately decide which pigeon-hole I belong in; such judgments will inevitable be wrong. I don’t even agree with myself all the time. ;-)

That brings me to another comment or a couple of quotations at least.
I hold myself sacredly bound, not to defend these positions at all events, but on the contrary, to subject every one of them to the most thorough discussion, and to hold and treat them as I would the opinions of any one else; that is, if upon further discussion and investigation I see no cause to change, I hold them fast; but if I can see a flaw in any one of them, I shall amend or wholly reject it, as further light shall demand.

True Christian consistency implies progress in knowledge and holiness, and such changes in theory and in practice as are demanded by increasing light.

Charles Grandison Finney
in the preface to his Systematic Theology (1851)

and an earlier quote from William Tyndale, If I shall perceive either by myself or by the information of another, that ought be escaped me, or might be more plainly translated, I will shortly after, cause it to be mended.

The ‘brief outline’ spec is going to be more difficult. My perception of the great truth of Sanctification begins in Genesis and is still going strong when the Revelation closes. It undergirds and integrates the whole of my salvation theology; it is not a bolt-on interest. If you are happy with this, I will make a start. As a brief introduction I can do no better than hyperlink you to
the Campbell Morgan devotional for 2nd April.


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2004/4/2 3:23Profile
crsschk
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Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re: Christian Perfection

I am drooling already!

Quote:
I don’t even agree with myself all the time



Ron, that is my whole philosophy in a nut shell, only I would change it slightly, replacing the 'all' with [i]'most of'[/i].

Recall most of this from an earlier post, don't remember if I had reponded or was thinking of responding...so if this is redundant, oh well, it won't be the first time, nor likely the last...

"Stone Ears" :-)


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Mike Balog

 2004/4/2 10:54Profile
philologos
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Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Hi Mike

Please pause on the drooling; I am away from my desk on a short holiday for a week.

I must admit to a bit of drooling myself. This is a juicy topic and I hope we can do it some kind of justice.


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Ron Bailey

 2004/4/2 13:59Profile
crsschk
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Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re:

I'll get a bib :-)
Thanks Ron...
Enjoy your holiday!


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Mike Balog

 2004/4/2 14:11Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re: Framework

Some time ago I began a book on this topic. This was the framework. You will see it was going to be comprehensive in its scope.

Preface
I The Diagnosis
1. Disobedience and Disaster
2. Death
3. Sin and Sins
4. The Old Man
5. A Lost Destiny
6. The Old Covenant

II The Remedy
7. Setting the Stage
8. The Hour
9. The Baptism
10. The Crown
11. The Throne

III The Application
12. Obedience and Restoration
13. Life
14. Forgiveness and Restoration
15. The New Man
16. The Hope of Glory
17. The New Covenant

IV How to...
18. Where am I now?
19. Hearing
20. Believing
21. Receiving
22. But if anyone does sin...

I recall that my brief was to be brief so I will just touch on some of the topics. I am starting like this to emphasise that for me this topic is not additional to the gospel, but IS the gospel. An old hymn speaks thus...

Let the water and the blood
From thy riven side which flowed
Be of sin the double cure,
Cleanse me from its guilt and power.

It is the double-cure of sins and SIN that makes ours 'so great a salvation'. I leave the framework, which balances the cause with the cure, for folks to browse then make a start.


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Ron Bailey

 2004/4/14 14:30Profile
RobertW
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Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Praise God brother Ron! I pray that all of our lives will be enriched through this study and we will all draw closer to God. And that we will follow peace with all men and holiness without which no man will see the Lord.

Lord make it a reality in your Church that the Bride may make Herself ready!

God Bless,

-Robert


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Robert Wurtz II

 2004/4/14 16:19Profile
sermonindex
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Posts: 37032
"Pilgrim and Sojourner." - 1 Peter 2:11

Online!
 Re:

Quote:
I recall that my brief was to be brief so I will just touch on some of the topics. I am starting like this to emphasise that for me this topic is not additional to the gospel, but IS the gospel. An old hymn speaks thus...


Brother Ron, this seems like a great study and I am very much anticipating it. I have in your furlong just re-read 'Chrisitan Perfectionism' by John Wesley, if you don't mind I will bring out some points from that book as they corespond with the conversation, I have alot of [i]questionables[/i] I would love your feed back on. Also it would be neat as you are going through this how the Holy Spirit or Baptism of the Holy Spirit works in all of this.


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SI Moderator - Greg Gordon

 2004/4/15 2:00Profile
philologos
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Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Hi Greg
'forum' means a market place. For me the essential concept is of ideas out in the 'open market'. This is not the '6 feet above contradiction' of the pulpit but the open exchange of ideas in a busy bustling market place. It doesn't take much reading between the lines to see the vigour of debate in synagogues, market places and even the gathering of the saints in the NT. Please... question, challenge, remonstrate... whatever. You will not offend me my challenging my ideas. This is a forum, the market place; this is street teaching. If my views can't stand energetic examination let them die.

As I progress I will make a few connections with traditional positions for clarity's sake but in the main will pursue the target pausing just to respond to exchanges. This will not exactly correspond to any other 'position'; Wesley, Spurgeon, Finney, Oswald Chambers, Campbell Morgan will all 'fit where it touches' but my position is not Wesleyan, nor Pentecostal, nor Pentecostal Holiness; it is mine. I arrived here by challenging the writings of these men. So I will be very comfortable with my own being challenged.

What you are about to get is an extremely condensed form of my own systematic theology. Some bits of this have already made their appearance on these pages. :-P It is still 'a work in progress' and not written in stone. You will recall I once said that I suspected that 'genuine revival was just a return to genuine regeneration'. That was not a throw-away line but is basic to my thinking.


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Ron Bailey

 2004/4/15 6:23Profile
philologos
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Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Hope deferred maketh the heart sick.

My apologies for not getting back to this thread. I have had a very busy time preaching and teaching and am currently packing for Poland, flying tomorrow for a conference in Warsaw. I have 6 or 7 sessions over the weekend, and have been a little preoccupied.:-D

Back soon, thanks for waiting...


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Ron Bailey

 2004/4/29 13:44Profile
philologos
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Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re: Next Door to Heaven: Preface

Read not to contradict and confute,
nor to believe and take for granted,
nor to find talk and discourse,
but to weigh and consider.


Some books are to be tasted,
others to be swallowed,
and some few to be chewed and digested.


Francis Bacon 1561-1626

Preface

It is traditional to write the preface last of all, and equally traditional that hardly anyone should ever read it. I am intentionally breaking the first tradition and I hoping that the second tradition will suffer the same fate.

For some time I have been puzzled by a strange omission in modern Evangelicalism. Literature dealing with the issues of heart holiness has been conspicuous mainly by its absence. A generation or so past had a full choice of perspectives from the likes of Thomas Cook, Samuel Chadwick, Paget Wilkes, Barclay Buxton, Samuel Brengle and many others. The perspective has its continuing witness in the writings of Oswald Chambers, but many know him only in daily devotional readings.

The preaching of this truth has not quite died out, but not everyone has access to the preachers. Preaching has a unique place in God's economy, but there is room too for the kind of teaching which can take its time in developing a theme. The bustle of everyday life has resulted in a generation of Christians who have a leaning towards the snappy phrase or "sound bite". The New Testament was not written in this frame of mind, and can only be fully appreciated by those who are prepared to give some time to understanding it.

The intention of this book is to share some truths pertaining to God's plan for the believer, not only in the heaven to come but here on the earth.

In Bunyan's Pilgrim's Progress the pilgrim Christian stays for some days at the Castle Beautiful. It is early in his pilgrimage and he rests for the night in a room called Peace, where he slept till break of day, and then awoke and sang -

"Where am I now? Is this the love and care
Of Jesus, for the men that pilgrims are?
Thus to provide that I should be forgiven,
And dwell already the next door to heaven!"

This book is an expression of a heartlonging that men and women who belong to Jesus Christ should know the provision of their Lord not only for a future heaven but for their earthly pilgrimage too. He has made available to us all things that are necessary for life and godliness.

Included in His salvation is the provision that we might know not only forgiveness, but that even on earth we may live...

...next door to heaven.

Ron Bailey, Reading, England 2004


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Ron Bailey

 2004/5/21 5:15Profile





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