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philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
Yes, he was not referring to a theoretical, unseen mountain as you say. As he often did, he was pointing to "this mountain" to use in his object lesson, but I still do not conclude he was motivating his disciples to move literal mountains.


Nor do I. He was emphasising the dynamic power of genuine faith. But faith as a 'mustard seed' has to come from somewhere. I do not create my own 'mustard seeds' and I do not create my own faith. It is clear enough why Christ did not move any literal mountains; “But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work.”
(John 5:17 KJVS) This co-working with his Father is expounded through the next few verses...v19, 30, He had the 'life' and 'power' within himself to do any of these things but he did all that he did in direct obedience to the Father's will. He refused, from the wilderness temptation right through to Gethsemene, to act independently of the Father.

Christ is not trying to get us into the methodology of 'moving mountains' but is speaking to the need of genuine faith, which although tiny in its beginnings is a greater power than we can imagine.

Paul speaks of 'faith unfeigned' (1Tim 1:5) ie faith without hypocrisy, and as the Greek word for actor is hypocrit we might translate it 'faith without pretence'; the genuine article. There would never have been any need to add the adjective 'unfeigned' if it were not for the existence of 'fake faith'.


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2007/5/4 6:14Profile
MikeH
Member



Joined: 2006/9/21
Posts: 116


 Re:

Webster's has two definitions of a mountain. The second is: "2 a : a great mass b : a vast number or quantity". As in a mountain of chips, a mountain of candy, a mountain of problems. The EU had a butter mountain at one time. You could travel the length and breadth of the EU and never find it. It was a good way of representing a serious problem with over production, but wasn't real. The butter was stored in cold storage all over the EU. It also had a wine lake, but it wasn't open for swimming. :-)

The first meaning in Websters is "1 a : a landmass that projects conspicuously above its surroundings and is higher than a hill b : an elongated ridge." This is a real mountain that people might want to climb and is the meaning of the word in Greek.

The message is clearer from the related teaching in Luke:

[color=009900]Luk 17:6 And the Lord said, If ye had faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye might say unto this sycamine tree, Be thou plucked up by the root, and be thou planted in the sea; and it should obey you.[/color]

We do not say a sycamine tree of chips, problems, etc. This was a real tree.

So, if we now agree Jesus was referring to real things, when giving this teaching, and that He did not move any real mountains, or sycamine trees. My next question is:

Did the Lord have faith to move mountains or sycamine trees during His earthly ministry?

Mike

 2007/5/4 10:44Profile
WordAndTime
Member



Joined: 2007/5/3
Posts: 2


 Re: Andrew Wommack

Ron B "philologos"

Thank you for clarifying what is dangerous about health and wealth teaching. I can wholeheartedly agree with your statement. The basis of being poor or sick because of a lack of God's favor only puts condemnation upon those in that situation. Even King David asked of God why the heathen prosper. It certainly isn't because of their great faith.

I also want to thank you for stating "In most prosperity preachers..." instead of All prosperity preachers. Again, I can say that what I have heard from Andrew Wommack, that kind of extreme teaching is not what he communicates, nor do I hear it from any of the other teachers I mentioned in my first reply on May 3.

Since I am new to this web-site posting question and answer, I am not familiar with the regulations of what is acceptable in terms of taking a question in other directions. I would find it interesting to continue with the topic of health and wealth as it relates to the Bible, but I will conclude by keeping the original question as the basis of this reply. "Simonb" was asking if anyone was familiar with Andrew Wommack. I read the responses of others stating they didn't care for him. I have not been sent here by Andrew Wommack Ministries to defend him; I am simply stating my observation that he, along with the other names mentioned in my first reply, has made a remarkable difference in my spiritual growth. So download a message or two from his web-site and decide for yourself.

Thanks again.

 2007/5/4 15:02Profile
ginnyrose
Member



Joined: 2004/7/7
Posts: 7460
Mississippi

 Re:

Dian wrote:

Quote:
I wonder how many of the regulars here would speak to their dead son to get up or would we just feel that it was God's will that he stay dead?



OK, you can count me as a regular....so do I qualify to answer this question? Whether I do or not here goes: On April 9 we buried my 80 YO father; on Jan. 18, 1996 we buried our 25 YO daughter. The bodies were dead when they were buried and are still dead. Now the saying "The young can die but the old must die" may enter in here for our discussion, so we must consider this, OK?

Did I have the faith God could heal Regina? Yes, I did, but He said "NO." As a child of the King I took his word gracefully and went on with my life. In the meantime, I was comforted supernaturally, the likes of which I have never before nor since experienced. And not only that, I believe she AND my dad are with the LORD, so why on earth would you want them back here to live in this sin cursed world, anyhow? Lady, we had five cxildren and our goals were to teach these children so when life ends they can live with the LORD in all eternity. So what if one gets there before I do? An American parent does not expect to bury their child: a child expects to bury the parent. But God sometimes says "No" and it is in our best interest to accept His answer and continue to look to Him because you can righfully know He has a better plan then what you think you do.

Dian, I sense, you have greater problems then whether one has the faith to raise the dead to life. The question that dogs me is why on earth do you want to raise someone who loved the LORD???? Do you really believe in heaven? or an eternal abiding place for the saiints of God that is absolutely wonderful? I wonder....I do not understand the motivation of your question...

ginnyrose


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Sandra Miller

 2007/5/4 16:04Profile
Spitfire
Member



Joined: 2004/8/3
Posts: 633


 Re:

Quote:
....I do not understand the motivation of your question



The motivation of my question is the glory of God. Also, I [i]did[/i] follow my first post with a second that I hoped would clarify that our faith is directed by our personal promises from God. We shouldn't just be deciding for ourselves what we want and speaking to things just for the sake of having them, like some magic trick. Faith is not magic, but I do believe Hebrews makes it clear that people are in danger of not receiving what God wants them to receive because of their own unbelief.
Quote:
Dian, I sense, you have greater problems then whether one has the faith to raise the dead to life.


I believe if you'll read my past posts you'll discover that I know that better than anyone here, unlike some people who think they know everything and they are the experts that we need to listen to. (That is not meant as a gouge toward you, Ginnyrose.)

I am definitely not impressed with people who think they've got everything all figured out.

I've said the things I've said here because I want to believe God for all that he has for me and I think we will find out, when it's all said and done, that we missed out on many blessings because we didn't believe. We'll find that things could have been different if we would have believed what God said, so I'm striving to believe. Oh God, help my unbelief! Dian.

Ginnyrose, I'm sorry for your painful losses. I truly am. What a severe trial! Bless you, Sister.

 2007/5/4 16:38Profile
Spitfire
Member



Joined: 2004/8/3
Posts: 633


 Re:

Quote:
The question that dogs me is why on earth do you want to raise someone who loved the LORD????



Did Lazarus love the Lord? Jesus raised him from the dead for the glory of God. It wasn't time for Lazarus to stay in the grave. I'm sure he did eventually go to the grave and stay there.

Quote:
Do you really believe in heaven? or an eternal abiding place for the saiints of God that is absolutely wonderful?



Oh yes, Sister, I do believe, but I believe many will miss it because they are simply religious but don't really believe, and I'm striving to be certain I'm not one of those. Love, Dian.

 2007/5/4 16:44Profile
dohzman
Member



Joined: 2004/10/13
Posts: 2132


 Re: Hi sis

Quote:
Oh yes, Sister, I do believe, but I believe many will miss it because they are simply religious but don't really believe, and I'm striving to be certain I'm not one of those. Love, Dian.

I see alot of manisfestations in the church world, some hype some real, some??????well who really knows. Those things, as really amazing as they are, are not christianity, they can be an evidence of the presence and working of God but Jesus said many will come in that day and say ....look at what we did, of course they did in His name. He confessed He never knew knew. At the end of the day it really breaks down to obedience to Jesus out of a relationship born of love for Him, all that other "stuff" will be a natural by product.

As to those who are regulars on this board I haven't seen any yet who hasn't at one time or another repented and or apologized, and I don't believe any of us believes we have all the answers.

Could you clarify what you mean by simply religious?


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D.Miller

 2007/5/4 18:01Profile
Spitfire
Member



Joined: 2004/8/3
Posts: 633


 Re:

Quote:
Could you clarify what you mean by simply religious?



These types of people are almost always in the church or they have been at one time or another. They know of God, they have knowledge but they don't have relationship. They're security is in a bunch of stuff they've heard someone else say or half-truths. They're legalistic and demanding of others, jockeying for position among their Christian circles like they're playing some kind of sport. "Look at me, I'm somebody." In their hearts they think they are better than most people and you can tell by the way they so quickly write people off. They don't love and they don't suffer long and they maintain their secret sins while they walk around with their spiritual noses stuck in the air, just waiting on an opportunity to "score".

Jesus called them a brood of vipers, whitewashed sepulchers, who would think they were doing God a favor by killing you, teaching for commandments the doctrines of men. They don't love God and they are not jealous for the glory of God and they do not love righteousness. Instead, they are looking for some way to exalt themselves and establish themselves as the authority and appear as God's "chosen". These are the very one's who cried "crucify him!" and they are the one's who don't like it now when the Holy Spirit does something they don't endorse cause they think they know God better than he knows himself. Dian.

 2007/5/4 20:31Profile
dohzman
Member



Joined: 2004/10/13
Posts: 2132


 Re: Sis

Quote:
Col 3:22 Servants, obey in all things your masters according to the flesh; not with eyeservice, as menpleasers; but in singleness of heart, fearing God:
Eph 6:5 Servants, be obedient to them that are your masters according to the flesh, with fear and trembling, in singleness of your heart, as unto Christ;
Eph 6:6 Not with eyeservice, as menpleasers; but as the servants of Christ, doing the will of God from the heart;



Are menpleasers who do things in the church with eyeservice saved? or just religious?


_________________
D.Miller

 2007/5/4 22:08Profile
ginnyrose
Member



Joined: 2004/7/7
Posts: 7460
Mississippi

 Re:

Dian,

Interesting reply...

Dian, do you not think the greatest problem humans have with God and the blessings we can reasonably expect from him are simply we are too self-centered? we want to satisfy our own 'lusts' instead of making ourselves available to God and then lettting him do as he wills? As I study the scriptures the blessings God bestowed upon his children came as a by-product of them walking with Him in obedience. And not always were his children so wonderfully blessed: some even died not having seen the promises fulfilled in their liftime.(Read Hebrews 11.) Seems to me if we focus our attention on blessings we will miss it entirely because we are focusing on our own self-interests rather then God.

BTW, it has been through the many afflictions that I have come to know God in a deeper way. Do you not know that when all goes well we experience no need for Him? I am by nature a very independant person and God has had to work to make me dependant! Now this process is an ongoing one which I suspect will pursue me until I die.

Blessings,
ginnyrose


_________________
Sandra Miller

 2007/5/4 23:03Profile





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