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Discussion Forum : General Topics : I want to die

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Joined: 2004/8/3
Posts: 633

 Re: What's wrong

Jordan, here is what's wrong with that man permitting his fiance to sleep over at his house. She [i]did[/i] say to me that she slept on the couch, but that doesn't help anything as far as I'm concerned.

The scripture says that someone in leadership should be above reproach, meaning no one can find an area of indiscretion. Second, it says we, as believers, should avoid all appearances of evil. That means, it mustn't even [i]look[/i] like you're doing something wrong. Third, this young man sat across the table from me when he first arrived and told me that, before he came to Christ, his big area of sin was sex. The Bible says we should flee temptation, and make no provision for the flesh. This young man is being very unwise in his decision to do this. Fouthly, even if you just look at it from a worldly perspective, he isn't setting a good example for those whom he is supposed to be leading.

It is [i]wrong[/i] for this man to allow his fiance to sleep over at his house, period. He lives alone, and I, for one, don't believe for one second that he isn't sleeping with her. Maybe he [i]wishes[/i] he wasn't sleeping with her, but I'm not convinced.

Yes, he should either put her up somewhere else, or give her his apartment and go sleep on someone's floor for the night. Dian.

 2007/4/30 6:25Profile

Joined: 2004/3/31
Posts: 901
Melbourne, Australia



Spitfire wrote:
As for the matter concerning the youth pastor, my husband asked me to hold my tongue, for now. He suggested that we pray on it for a while and then see where things stand. I am willing to do what he asks.

Wise words your husband speaks....mmm (sounds like Yoda:-)).

Having just had my first open conversation with my ex-pastor on Sunday (we left the church due to some serious issues that affected our family, but not necessarily someone else's...long story). Even after four or so months, he was throwing back my words at me, which were badly chosen when I said it. I had referred to something that the church was doing as "toxic", meaning that it was potentially harmful, however he heard that I was saying that "he was toxic", as if I was saying that he had the "coo-tees" or something.

I had always said, of my ex-pastor, that it perplexed me how someone who "lived it so right", could "preach it so wrong". Our issues were not so much "theological" as "functional", but my badly chosen phrasing (the guy who invents the verbal equivalent to a "backspace key" will deserve a Nobel prize, for every category, especially "peace", in my opinion) painted the picture that I thought my old church was the "spawn of Satan".

There is something to be said of holding ones tongue until the right moment comes. And there is also something to be said for recognising when obeying Him means choosing an apparent "wrong choice". I seem to remember "someone" voting against their conscience in the last presidential election (I wonder who that was:roll:). Have you ever considered that confronting this issue, out of a "utilitarian motive", could result in this brother going "underground" with his compromise, while the kind of fallout that could come from being "totally exposed" could lead to his whole hearted repentance? It's easy to excuse away "questionable behaviour", when you haven't fallen flat on your face into blatant sin.

Sure there is a place for bringing a word of warning, but just make sure you aren't working against the purposes of God in doing so. I know that you personally are very particular about such things. Don't go changing on us now.;-)

Aaron Ireland

 2007/4/30 7:28Profile

Joined: 2007/4/30
Posts: 1


Hi, Tina:

Firstly, I want to say I appreciate your response of encouragement to Dian to love and pray for the Church, as God does look to and fro for those who will stand in the gap and intercede. Prophetically-natured people can sometimes mishandle the revelations received as they discern things gone awry; it does us well to hope for the best, bear all things...and guard our own hearts.

Secondly, I was interested to see noted what you received spiritually at the time of the 9/11 event. David Wilkerson's newsletter with the account of another pastor who likewise had an alarm go off in his spirit calling for true national repentance was a definite confirmation for me, too! I relate to your experience: "Everything that the Lord was speaking to me in my prayer closet, was confirmed from this pastor over 200 miles away in New York City! I hardly knew anything about David Wilkerson or Times Square Church then, but I knew I was receiving the truth for the first time in a very long time!!"
(For me it was over 2000 miles away.) The Lord has since used Wilkerson's material periodically to confirm things again and again.

When I start to feel like "maybe I'm wrong; just really missing it... I don't want to be negative... how come I can't think and feel about things the same way others around me do, and ignore sin issues, or enjoy things without prayer burdens,..."'; then the Lord will send confirmation one way or another to let me know that others are hearing and bearing the same things in the Spirit.
May we who take to heart things so heavily, always find our peace and joy in communing with our Father in heaven. The precious, gracious love of Jesus is all we need to find rest for our soul. May we war in the Spirit, contending not with men, but the Enemy; and may we refresh near the fountain of life each and every day.

(May Dian and her husband take heart that God loves them and they love Him. We mustn't let the joy of our salvation be stolen by the sinful condition of men.

Dian, you may be a "watchman on the wall" advisor/counselor to the team. Just do your part before God; let not the "blood be on your hands" but be prayerful, and may the wisdom of God come to you in knowing what to say to whom and when, IF at all. Be encouraged, you're not alone in the vexing of your soul over the state of things. Just keep on keeping on, being the best representative of Christ you can be.)

With love and blessings,

 2007/4/30 7:54Profile

Joined: 2003/5/8
Posts: 4419
Charlotte, NC



I think you are in error to say that you know that this youth pastor and his fiance are sleeping together. 1 Cor 13 says that love hopes all things, and that we should therefore give people the benefit of the doubt. However, I agree the youth pastor should not have his fiance sleeping at his own home, for reasons of staying above reproach.

Jimmy H

 2007/4/30 17:22Profile

Joined: 2003/11/23
Posts: 4489


Hi Spitfire...

I will certainly be praying for you concerning your situation with your local church. You should certainly be both loving and transparent with your pastor. He might explain something that you were not totally aware of. On the other hand, he may not be aware of the concerns of members of the congregation. Regardless, I feel that it is never good to bottle up your concerns.

As for the youth pastor...

I would remind you to not "jump to conclusions." You might even talk with them and remind them about how dangerous such a situation can be -- or appear to be -- for young believers. The Word prompts us to avoid even the very appearance of evil. While the definition of idea of what constitutes "evil" will vary from individual to individual (or even doctrinal belief to doctrinal belief), the idea of a young pastor sleeping in the same house alone with his girlfriend can appear unwise.

I wonder why no one else offered the young lady a place to stay?



 2007/4/30 21:00Profile

Joined: 2005/7/26
Posts: 524
Tennessee, USA


Dear Dian,

Matthew 23:1-3 (NIV)
1 Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples: 2 "The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat. 3 So you must obey them and do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach.

God values obedience more than sacrifice. In the Kingdom of God, Christ establishes a certain order of authority. As disciples of Christ, we are to heed the authority Christ places over us.

In this verse, Christ told His people plainly to obey those in authority above them. They sit in the seat of Moses, in the seat of authority. As such, they must be obeyed. Christ said this, even though He knew the Pharisees were blind guides. They were sinful. We should also heed these words.

As followers of Christ, we should seek to submit just as Christ submitted unto the authorities of His day. Indeed, we should not sin. However, if someone above us is sinning or is in error, that is not our concern. God is the judge of His leaders. Those above you will answer to God for their actions. You also will answer to God. When you answer to God for your actions, He will ask about your obedience. Did you submit, or did you stir contention among your family?

Do not worry about the sin of your leaders. Worry about the log in your own eye first. Are you following Christ? That is all that matters.

It is wrong for this man to allow his fiance to sleep over at his house, period. He lives alone, and I, for one, don't believe for one second that he isn't sleeping with her.

Whether it is wrong or not, it is not in your hands. This must be surrendered to Christ. Our aim is to encourage one another in faith, not judge one another's actions.

Consider this scripture:

Romans 14:1-12 (NIV)
1 Accept him whose faith is weak, without passing judgment on disputable matters. 2 One man's faith allows him to eat everything, but another man, whose faith is weak, eats only vegetables. 3 The man who eats everything must not look down on him who does not, and the man who does not eat everything must not condemn the man who does, for God has accepted him. 4 Who are you to judge someone else's servant? To his own master he stands or falls. And he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand. 5 One man considers one day more sacred than another; another man considers every day alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. 6 He who regards one day as special, does so to the Lord. He who eats meat, eats to the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who abstains, does so to the Lord and gives thanks to God. 7 For none of us lives to himself alone and none of us dies to himself alone. 8 If we live, we live to the Lord; and if we die, we die to the Lord. So, whether we live or die, we belong to the Lord. 9 For this very reason, Christ died and returned to life so that he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living. 10 You, then, why do you judge your brother? Or why do you look down on your brother? For we will all stand before God's judgment seat. 11 It is written: "'As surely as I live,' says the Lord, 'every knee will bow before me; every tongue will confess to God.'" 12 So then, each of us will give an account of himself to God. 13 Therefore let us stop passing judgment on one another. Instead, make up your mind not to put any stumbling block or obstacle in your brother's way.

In love and in Christ,


Blake Kidney

 2007/4/30 21:20Profile

 Re: I want to die

Beenblake said

As followers of Christ, we should seek to submit just as Christ submitted unto the authorities of His day. Indeed, we should not sin. However, if someone above us is sinning or is in error, that is not our concern. God is the judge of His leaders. Those above you will answer to God for their actions. You also will answer to God. When you answer to God for your actions, He will ask about your obedience. Did you submit, or did you stir contention among your family?

Hi Been,

I don't know what gives you the idea that Jesus submitted to the authorities of His day, especially in the light of His words which you quote

'[b]But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach[/b].' !!!

There is a difference also, between not knowing that a leader is sinning, and knowing. That knowledge places a responsibility on the however lowly and insignificant believer. It may be to pray, but it may also be to speak. How about Nathan, confronting David over Bathsheba? Jesus gives clear guidelines for keeping relationships right within the Church, including how to call an elder to account.

On the matter of 'contention', I think there is plenty of scripture which defines [i]unhelpful[/i] contention, but those contentions are in a completely different category from the matter which caused this thread to be posted, (which matters figure frequently in Paul's lists of sins which [i]must[/i] be refrained from if the person is to be saved).

 2007/5/1 5:33

Joined: 2004/10/13
Posts: 2132

 Are you sure??????

I haven't had time to read through the other posts, so if I repeat what someone else has posted Let me say sorry. I think that you and your husband have a very good oppurtunity here and how you two and especially you handle this situation will forever define the both of you and to what extent you'll be of use to Jesus and eternal things. You really have two choices, either cut and run or learn to seek Jesus and become more Christlike. The choice is yours.
If I was to advise it would go something like this, You two (hear my wording very carefully), you two can become one here if you'll get the emotion out of the thing and start spending time in prayer and learning the principles of God, be careful not to enter into judgement and thereby sin. Learn the patience of a farmer who sows prayer and actions of love and the Encouraging Word of God. I feel a sense of frustration as I'm writting this so you have probably made up your mind on the matter, but know this that your actions and influence, Sis, will either destroy your husbands faith or build his faith up and draw him closer to the Lord.Joh 1:36 And looking upon Jesus as he walked, he saith, Behold the Lamb of God!

You wanted to be used by God and when the opportunity comes you run from it. So you need to make up your mind and decide if you'll follow Jesus with the cross or not. Complaining won't help, it's really an issue of the heart here.
When things keep coming up like this it's easy to say it's the devil, it's someone elses sin, etc.... but really the truth of the matter is it's probably God answering our prayers in a way we didn't expect Him to. We pray use me Lord for your glory, than we miss the opportunity because we don't properly discern the moment. I'm talikin to myself here! So what have you been praying for? I think if the two of you become one, and spend the proper time in prayer together and God's Word, no matter what happens, you'll have a foundation to not only handle the situations life throws at you but also make an eternal difference.


 2007/5/1 7:52Profile

Joined: 2005/2/24
Posts: 2732


I've noticed that whenever we discuss bringing a concern to a pastor or elder, we seem to polarize along two extremes; either the leadership is dastardly Pharisees, or they are spiritual olympians untouchable in their realm of authority. (No wonder pastors seem to feel so isolated from the rest of us.) I think they are also brothers. What's the big deal about advising this young youth pastor to use more discretion? (And offer him a place to sleep if needed!) And why can't we ask our pastors, respectfully, about how the finances are handled?

Though I certainly agree with Darly's comments, which seem to sum up everyon'es concern, to not fall into sin over this situation. In fact, making a big deal over this is exactly the wrong reaction...speak your piece respectfully, privately, affirmingly, and then move on without a grudge. I see no need for angonizing over whether or not to approach these men over the topics or moral conduct and money...but certainly we should be loving in how we approach them. "Do not sharply rebuke an older man, but rather appeal to him as a father, to the younger men as brothers...

This thread makes me a wee bit paranoid. Is someone holding back some wise counsel from me because they thing I'm too prideful or insecure to hear it? We should think our leaders are bigger men then to be so fragile as to crumble because we bring up a concern about something we see in their conduct.

Perhaps the issue here is the motive of the heart of the person bringing the concern. I'm thinking of Genesis 9.20-27, the account of Noah's drunkenness and exposure. (I'm not comparing sins here...only a principle.) We do not run and tell the other brothers about our fathers exposure...but we also don't ignore the situation and let the exposure continue and then murmur about it as well. Instead we approach humbly and help cover up the this case by a private, humble and supportive conversation.

Maybe I'm missing something, but I think this is a rather routine situation and no cause whatsoever for alarm. To treat this as if the leadership is a brood of hypocrites is terribly wrong, but to treat this as some kind of unstable nuclear reactor also seems uncalled for. We are talking about decent sincere men who are our brothers as well. Just honor the irreplaceable relationship that you have with them and watch their back.

And whatever you do, don't gossip about these men in the church. This is a too common besetting sin among frustrated church members...a much, much greater harm then the original indescretions. A gossip betrays confidence...Such a self-serving response would almost certainly hurt your pastor deeply, and erode precious trust he has in not only you but the whole congregation. A pastor's honor, his public trust, is a vital tool of his calling, and if you steal that you are guilty of a terrible offense in God's eyes (A false witness will not go unpunished...) with ramifications that effect the whole body. In short, gossip can cripple a pastor's or elder's ministry, and this is an awful and eternal loss, since they were appointed to ably serve and oversee their congregation.



Mike Compton

 2007/5/1 8:54Profile

Joined: 2005/7/26
Posts: 524
Tennessee, USA


That knowledge places a responsibility on the however lowly and insignificant believer.

I am sorry my dear sister, but it does not. The Lord sent Nathan to confront David. The only responsibility a believer has is to the Lord. We should not take responsibility into our own hands. If the Lord tells us to confront the authorities, then we should. However, this should come after much prayer. The Lord values obedience above all. We should seek to submit, not rebel. Rebellion is the nature of sin, not of God.

In addition, Nathan was a prophet who spoke on behalf of the Lord. David was also a prophet while being King. In the situation of Dian, the pastor and elders should be the one to confront the youth pastor. Whatever the leaders decide, so they should respect.

It is ironic you should mention David. He also knew of the importance of submission. When David was under the Kingship of Saul, David submitted. He obeyed, even when Saul had fallen away from the Lord. David was given three opportunities to kill Saul, but David would not. David knew that he did not have the authority to do so. Even when David became King, he had the Amalekite struck down for killing God's anointed. (2 Samuel 1:11-16)

God values obedience. Christ never disobeyed any authority. He even paid His taxes.

In love,

Blake Kidney

 2007/5/1 10:34Profile

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