Quote:When did Jesus Christ take away their sins???? The answer to this question answers the time in which "all Israel shall be saved".
Rom 11:26 and so all Israel shall be saved: even as it is written, There shall come out of Zion the Deliverer; He shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:27 And this is my covenant unto them, When I shall take away their sins.
| 2007/4/30 11:40|
I was told Art Katz was universalist in his thinking as well Barth and MacDonald who I am impressed with his writing: "The Creation in Christ". Is ths true of Katz?
| 2007/4/30 13:15|
Katz is far from being a universalist. He believes there are many people going to hell. If anybody wants a good understanding of what Katz is about, I highly recommend "Apostolic Foundations." I can't think of too many sermons of his that don't somehow find expression in this book... although there are some parts of the book where he teaches things I've never heard him teach in any other sermon.
| 2007/4/30 15:36||Profile|
Quote:Bro Compliments, I did not mention the word "covenant", I spoke of [i][b]"the Word, promises and faithfulness of God Himself"[/b][/i]. Promise and covenant are not the same. God made the promises, already knowing that Israel would repeatedly break the covenant, and that He would have to make a new one. So it makes no difference, to this issue, what covenant is in force, the Word of God still stands.
Quote:Jeannette, I would heartily agree with you, however the covenant was changed, and a new one was drawn up.
The fulfillment of God's Word re His earthly people has nothing to do with their faithfulness, or righteouseness, or even if they accept Jesus or not. Rather, it has to do with the Word, promises and faithfulness of God Himself. Israel as a nation (although there was always a faithful remnant) broke the Covenant and rejected their Messiah, yet God never breaks His Word.
I don't see any hint in Scripture that the Lord intends to break His, (as yet unfulfilled or only part fulfilled) promise to the Jews, or that the promise was conditional on their faithfulness.
So the quote below, though wonderfully true, does not affect the issue I was discussing.
Jeremiah 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
Quote:You mean the remnant of Israel? I don't know for sure.
Is the remnant that is supposed to be saved take place in the last days?
But this is a different issue, as I said. Let's keep the two things clear. We would hope for many, many Jews to return to the God of Israel, and be reborn into the New Covenant, especially in the Last days. Which I think Scripture indicates. But that has no direct connection with the promises re the Land etc.
Thanks for being willing to discuss and look carefully at this issue, as I'm seeking to do.
Yours in the Lord
| 2007/5/2 12:02|
Quote:AMEN!!! (and welcome, I see you've only just joined)
Rom 11:13 But I speak to you that are Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle of Gentiles, I glorify my ministry;
Rom 11:14 if by any means I may provoke to jealousy them that are my flesh, and may save some of them.
Rom 11:15 For if the casting away of them is the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be , but life from the dead?
Rom 11:16 And if the firstfruit is holy, so is the lump: and if the root is holy, so are the branches.
Rom 11:17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and thou, being a wild olive, wast grafted in among them, and didst become partaker with them of the root of the fatness of the olive tree;
Rom 11:18 glory not over the branches: but if thou gloriest, it is not thou that bearest the root, but the root thee.
Rom 11:19 Thou wilt say then, Branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in.
Rom 11:20 Well; by their unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by thy faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
Rom 11:21 for if God spared not the natural branches, neither will he spare thee.
Rom 11:22 Behold then the goodness and severity of God: toward them that fell, severity; but toward thee, Gods goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
Rom 11:23 And they also, if they continue not in their unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.
Rom 11:24 For if thou wast cut out of that which is by nature a wild olive tree, and wast grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree; how much more shall these, which are the natural branches , be grafted into their own olive tree?
Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, have you ignorant of this mystery, lest ye be wise in your own conceits, that a hardening in part hath befallen Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in;
Rom 11:26 and so all Israel shall be saved: even as it is written, There shall come out of Zion the Deliverer; He shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
Rom 11:27 And this is my covenant unto them, When I shall take away their sins.
Rom 11:28 As touching the gospel, they are enemies for your sake: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers sake.
Rom 11:29 For the gifts and the calling of God are not repented of.
Rom 11:30 For as ye in time past were disobedient to God, but now have obtained mercy by their disobedience,
Rom 11:31 even so have these also now been disobedient, that by the mercy shown to you they also may now obtain mercy.
Rom 11:32 For God hath shut up all unto disobedience, that he might have mercy upon all.
Rom 11:33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and the knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past tracing out!
Rom 11:34 For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor?
Rom 11:35 or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again?
Rom 11:36 For of him, and through him, and unto him, are all things. To him be the glory for ever. Amen.
| 2007/5/2 12:11|