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UniqueWebRev
Member



Joined: 2007/2/9
Posts: 640
Southern California

 Re:

You know, I'm not sure I believe anyone's explanation of anything.

Still, that doesn't give me the right to snap at you. My apologies, my brother. I was very tired when I wrote that.

As for the Partial Preterist view, of everything being done, and pretty much waiting to happen, I could see a lot of sense there. It's really just a statement that we're all waiting for the final curtain, which we are.

But it was the Preterist's sites I objected to, because, if you don't know all the other end time positions, those sites are just ready to pull you in the wrong direction.

Imagine telling people that Jesus already came before 70 a.d. without mentioning who it was He came to! Well, Jesus showed himself to a lot of people, John being the last known, and that was in the 90's.

I don't recall a rapture to the sky or the heavens of any kind mentioned in the New Testament, except for Revelation, and that was only in the spirit, yet I don't want to doubt Paul's word, or Jesus', or the littering of referances throughout the Bible that a rapture will happen. Would I like it to come before the Trib? Of course, I'd be insane not to.

I was interested in the pre-wrath view for a time because it at least provided for people not to get their hopes up that all the Christians on earth will get out without a scratch, when people are dying daily for Christ, somewhere.

And yet the Preterist site's are a mess of confused statements, explanations, and generalized claims that would easily lead a casual visitor to these pages to believe such a thing could be true.

The one thing I like about an imminent Rapture is the view one takes towards the future. One stays fired up, watching and waiting, trying never to let your guard down.

As to the date, I leave that pretty much to God. He is the only one who knows, but Jesus did say we were to take notice of the signs of the times.

Well, I've lived with the signs for a long time, and while it's pleasant to see things going as supposedly scheduled, it's horrifying to see the world grow ever darker.

It is this I hate, and those deliberately misleading websites, not your questing spirit. For mine quests as well.

Again, forgive me, my brother.

Blessings

Forrest


_________________
Forrest Anderson

 2007/5/1 7:58Profile









 Re: Jacob Prasch

Quote:

CJaKfOrEsT wrote:
Quote:

I wonder if you have listened to either the Parkyns or Pawson series that were recommended? Pawson is good, because he faithfully deals with each stance (Idealist, Preterist, Historicist, Pre, Post and Amillenial). I have to admit that I don't fully agree with his conclusions, but then, at the same time, I do (this probably sounds weird, but you'd have to hear the series to get why I say this).

Parkyns' way of interpreting historical events, in the light of Revelation's imagery makes some sound points. His way of saying, "What would you expect to read, considering this happened in history?" approach is certainly very convincing.

I'll also put forward the following article [url="http://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=5497&forum=36#39895"]Future History of the Church[/url] and sermon [url=http://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/singlefile.php?lid=11893]Midrash[/url] by [url="www.moriel.org"]J Jacob Prasch[/url], for some understanding of Jewish Hermeneutics, particularly in the area of eschatology? Pawson does touch on this "light to heavy" theme in his series, but if you are unaware of it, it may be easily missed. This principle, in effect can tie the Historicist and Premillenial views together into a logical statement (in fact, it can also include Preterism and Idealism).

At the end of the day, it is very tempting to try to fit everything into nice neat little boxes, for easy digestion. This was the mistake that the Pharisees made when interpreting the Messianic prophecies, leading to them missing Meshiach when he came.

Thanks for these comments, really good and helpful.

A slight digression: Have you seen Jacob Prasch? He reminds me of John the Baptist: Rough and ready, no tact at all, very confrontational, doesn't care what anyone thinks of him ... but usually right!

He also seems to hate wearing smart clothes. When I saw him before a meeting he was in a casual top and carrying the shirt he had (no doubt reluctantly) been persuaded to wear to speak. He has the sort of slight scruffiness that you see in some university professors who are too busy studying to care what they wear. Someone commented on one who taught me, whose gown was usually falling off his shoulders, "I like the way he [i]almost[/i] wears his gown"

I think Jacob Prasch is great - even when I don't agree with him! (Assuming I understand what he's talking about, he's so knowledgable that some of it is way over my head!) Maybe I see him with a mixture of amusement and great respect...

Blessings

Jeannette

 2007/5/1 8:25









 Re: Jacob Prasch

I've just downloaded the full "Future History of the Church", copied it into Word, changed the margins to take as few pages as possible, (34, really squashed!) and started tp print it out. Ran out of ink!

Thanks so much for this! Right or wrong, this man really knows what he's talking about and the background facts that most of us wouldn't be able to understand

Blessings

jeannette

Jeannette

 2007/5/1 8:53
CJaKfOrEsT
Member



Joined: 2004/3/31
Posts: 901
Melbourne, Australia

 Re:

Quote:

UniqueWebRev wrote:
The one thing I like about an imminent Rapture is the view one takes towards the future. One stays fired up, watching and waiting, trying never to let your guard down.



Forrest,

I've highlighted this statement because it illustrates a great, albeit subtle concern I have when observing the means in which many people interpret Scripture. Whenever peoples logic or a utilitarian logic is the basis of our interpretation of Biblical statements, our alarm bells should go off.

To quote Dietrich Bonhoeffer:
Quote:

"Wherever man attacks the concrete Word of God with the weapon of a principle or idea of God there he has become lord over God."



Either God is revealed in Scripture or He isn't. If He is, then we need to be vigilant at "allowing" God to be offensive to our intellect, especially in the areas of justice and mercy. Consider Jürgen Moltmann's comment on the cross of Christ:

Quote:

"The true faith begins where the atheist thinks it should end. In the mind boggling contradiction of all that we thought to be true about God."



The problem that I have with the secret rapture theory is that when Christ's return is spoken of it is clear that every eye will see. One must deduce that there are two "second comings", in order to maintain this logic. Another possibility is that the "thief in the night" and "observation of signs" points us to two different perspectives of viewing the rapture. One by the lost/deceived/apathetic (as those "in the days of Noah") and the other of the redeemed who await his coming (as "Noah" himself).

Regarding us "meeting him in the clouds", perhaps we ascend, in order to descend with him, as he returns for his Millennial Reign. Considering that it is said that we will rule and reign with him, this would make sense, and still be in keeping with the plain reading of Scripture.

Regarding the statements of being kept from tribulation, perhaps this more a perceived thing, where the saints will, as Paul, consider their sufferings as "momentary and light", and thereby be kept from the suffering element, through rejoicing in the midst of their trials. I only raise these in order to challenge your view.

My fear is that pre-trib orientated Premillenialism is a "point of least resistance" doctrine, that caters for our Western yearning for comfort and ease. Leonard Ravenhill cited a story of how Western missionaries lost all credibility in China after teaching pretrib rapture only to have every statement about future persecution be right, except the fact that they would escape it. Tragically I feel that there will be a great wave of disappointment as persecution intensifies, and spills over in great measure into the Western nations, that will rival the Great Day of Disappointment of 1844.

I insert that last point, simply to challenge the logic that you presented. The Second Adventist Revival, of 1844, saw many "turn to Christ" in anticipation of "Christ's imminent return" on October 22 of that year. Sadly, October 23rd saw many of them fall away, in disillusionment. This is what happened in history, when a false idea was spread with the right motives, and justified by utilitarian results.


_________________
Aaron Ireland

 2007/5/1 9:24Profile
InTheLight
Member



Joined: 2003/7/31
Posts: 2733
Phoenix, Arizona USA

 Re:

Quote:
My fear is that pre-trib orientated Premillenialism is a "point of least resistance" doctrine, that caters for our Western yearning for comfort and ease. Leonard Ravenhill cited a story of how Western missionaries lost all credibility in China after teaching pretrib rapture only to have every statement about future persecution be right, except the fact that they would escape it. Tragically I feel that there will be a great wave of disappointment as persecution intensifies, and spills over in great measure into the Western nations, that will rival the Great Day of Disappointment of 1844.



I wonder if this isn't a bit of utilitarian logic of your own. I can't help but think your point denies the power of the Holy Spirit to keep those in whom He dwells even in the face of great disappointment.

In Christ,

Ron


_________________
Ron Halverson

 2007/5/1 11:31Profile
JaySaved
Member



Joined: 2005/7/11
Posts: 1131
Kentucky

 Re:

Quote:
I wonder if this isn't a bit of utilitarian logic of your own. I can't help but think your point denies the power of the Holy Spirit to keep those in whom He dwells even in the face of great disappointment.



No one denies the power of the Holy Spirit to keep those whom He dwells even in the face of great disappointment. What we deny is that the Holy Spirit will keep us from trouble and tribulation in this world.

The fact is that the more someone is 'filled with the Spirit' the more likely they will be hated and persecuted. Let's take a look at Stephen, he was filled with the Spirit and all it got him on this earth was a stoning.

I believe CJaKfOrEsT makes a valid point in that (whether or not we intend to do so) us Christians in America believe that no trouble or persecution will come to us because we are Christians. When in truth, American Christianity is not the norm, it is the exception.

 2007/5/1 11:50Profile
UniqueWebRev
Member



Joined: 2007/2/9
Posts: 640
Southern California

 Re:

Quote:

CJaKfOrEsT wrote:
Quote:

UniqueWebRev wrote:
The one thing I like about an imminent Rapture is the view one takes towards the future. One stays fired up, watching and waiting, trying never to let your guard down.



Forrest,

I've highlighted this statement because it illustrates a great, albeit subtle concern I have when observing the means in which many people interpret Scripture. Whenever peoples logic or a utilitarian logic is the basis of our interpretation of Biblical statements, our alarm bells should go off.

To quote Dietrich Bonhoeffer:
Quote:

"Wherever man attacks the concrete Word of God with the weapon of a principle or idea of God there he has become lord over God."



Either God is revealed in Scripture or He isn't. If He is, then we need to be vigilant at "allowing" God to be offensive to our intellect, especially in the areas of justice and mercy. Consider Jürgen Moltmann's comment on the cross of Christ:

Quote:

"The true faith begins where the atheist thinks it should end. In the mind boggling contradiction of all that we thought to be true about God."


The problem that I have with the secret rapture theory is that when Christ's return is spoken of it is clear that every eye will see. One must deduce that there are two "second comings", in order to maintain this logic....Regarding us "meeting him in the clouds", perhaps we ascend, in order to descend with him, as he returns for his Millennial Reign. Considering that it is said that we will rule and reign with him, this would make sense, and still be in keeping with the plain reading of Scripture.

Regarding the statements of being kept from tribulation, perhaps this more a perceived thing...My fear is that pre-trib orientated Premillenialism is a "point of least resistance" doctrine, that caters for our Western yearning for comfort and ease....Tragically I feel that there will be a great wave of disappointment as persecution intensifies, and spills over in great measure into the Western nations, that will rival the Great Day of Disappointment of 1844.



Aaron,

I don't believe that the Rapture will be either secret or quiet.

I do know that it cannot be timed.

If the Rapture does occur prior to the Tribulation, I hope it is to turn the Laodicean Church around.

Having read the entire thread you posted last year by Prasch, I was quite taken by the way he sees certain things that I sense, but cannot explain. (And bless you for posting the article, and the recent link.) Fortunately for me, I've already been studying Judaica for years.

I do tend to look on the Rapture as the Hope for the believing church, not just as a life boat to get out of the way of the Great Tribulation, (2nd half of the Trib for those that don't know the basics of escatology), but to wake up some of those that are so half hearted about being Christian.

And think of the effect it would have in the places of persecution, where the church has gone underground, or at least very quiet, if millions of known, converted muslims and atheists, flat out disappear in front of people, after just preaching the coming of Christ! Ooh, that would be terrific!

But I am concerned about the need for appropriate caution. I fully investigated the view of a pre-wrath Rapture, and took warning then. And those I know that were brought up with the Pre-Trib Rapture Theory, I warned myself of the danger of expecting too much.

Prasch said he was convinced that the Rapture would happen between the 6th and 7th seal being broken. I tend to believe it will happen during the fifth seal, much as I would like to get out sooner. Like the first 300+ years of saints after Jesus died, I will continue to daily expect the Rapture until it happens or I die.

I don't plan to go anywhere. Where can you go to escape persecution as a Born Again Christian? And worse, as an evangelist?

In my view, America will protect us the longest, at least from death. I well know I could land in jail for just what is already on my website, and as for possessions, well, they come and go as the breeze, and always have.

I have been worried for a long time about a lot that Prasch brought up in the article you posted. Why does no one expect demons to descend on us, but that we merely deal with a smoothtalking politician?

I've watched UFO's dancing minuets in the evening sky with my friends to the point of boredom - pretty, designed to be noticed, to prepare a mindset for all sorts of lies and explanations, when to my mind, demons and angels are both 'aliens' to our world.

I hear about cloning, and instantly think of Chimera's, those poor mixtures of beasts, probably demon powered, that show up in Classical Literature, and could only be from a time prior to Noah. Flying horses and unicorns and such sound pretty in all the fairy tales, but from what I've read, they were really quite nasty articles of somebody's invention that could not create on his own.

But worse, I think of all those 'stars' falling, and possessing the unsaved, and using them to set up the the Great Trib. The first three and 1/2 years are not going to be a cakewalk for anyone.

[color=993300]Rev. 6: 9. And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
10. And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
[u] 11. And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.[/u]
12. And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
[u]13. And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.[/u]
14. And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
15. And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
16. And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
17. For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?[/color]

The fifth seal contains the cry of the martyred spirits to God, and the putting on of white clothing, denoting righteousness,(the Judgement of the Lamb?) and an implicit warning that a huge harvest of saints is coming. But oddly, the fifth seal contains no other action. Isn't that a nifty mind boggler?

The sixth seal contains four seperate events - a big earthquake that I'd like to miss; the 'star's fall, which in my mind, equals demons; a nuclear exchange or Godly equivalent, and the 144,000 Jewish witnesses that are sealed unto the Holy Spirit.

Anyway, I agree with you to a point. I believe in a rapture because it's in the Bible. I don't believe any Christian is guaranteed anything except salvation, and reward in the Judgement of the Lamb for whatever works were done on earth that were done with right motive, if one can have a right motive, or do any kind of works in that frame of mind except with the Holy Spirit moving you to.

And I consider the doctrine of imminency to be crucial to the right frame of mind of a Christian, as long as you don't try to set a date for the Rapture, and frequently warn against doing so, as I believe you were doing.

Yes, we could go up to come right back down, but that serves no practical purpose, and God is nothing if not practical.

But I'm still at a loss to figure out how to escape the Anti-Christ during the Great Trib with demons running around everywhere, and Lucifer having a signed warrant from God to catch us all if he can. Besides, I'm too old and broken to run.

So, I rest in the Hope of the Rapture, and refuse to worry. The situation is out of my control, except for staying fired up about Jesus, and doing my best to snag a stray soul, water a seed, or plant one for later. And if I perish, well, I just hope it won't hurt too much.

Death doesn't trouble me - I found that out in the accident. To me, death would be a relief right now, except that I have too much to do.

Jail I can survive, so long as some kind, unsaved soul, like my brother, feeds my dogs.

Blessings,

Forrest


_________________
Forrest Anderson

 2007/5/1 15:49Profile





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