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 Re: Name dropping... poor way to discuss doctrine


PassingThru said

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however we also need to watch that we aren't being misguided by the interpretations of another unnoticed man - ourselves.

beenblake said
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Scripture should be the final authority once the Spirit reigns in us, so that when we read scripture, it is the revelation of God we are receiving, and not our own interpretation or understanding. In this way, we trust in God and do not lean on our own understanding.

The bible can be warped to fit any person's doctrine.

roadsign said
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I believe that the temptation to “go it solo” lurks under the skin of most of us; and also, it is easy to swing too far to one side. Therefore our various attempts to keep truth in balance aught to be as welcome as sunshine.

I was convicted in the last few days by Tyndale's rendering of these verses. First, the KJV:

1 Timothy 1
charge some that they teach no other doctrine,
4 Neither give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which minister questions, rather than godly edifying which is in faith: [i]so do[/i].
5 Now the end of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart, and [i]of[/i] a good conscience, and [i]of[/i] faith unfeigned:
6 From which some having swerved have turned aside unto vain jangling;
7 Desiring to be teachers of the law; understanding neither what they say, nor whereof they affirm.

Tyndale ends the paragraph with v 7 and begins without the 'But' of the KJV at the start of v 8. Here is how he puts vv the end of 3 - 7:

'That thou command some that they teach no other wise: neither give heed to fables and geneologies which are endless, and breed doubts more than goldly edifying which is by faith: for the end of the commandment is love* that cometh of a pure heart and of a good conscience, and of faith unfeigned: from the which things some have erred, and have turned unto vain jangling [u]because they would be doctors of the scripture, and yet understand not what they speak, neither whereof they affirm[/u].

* marginal note: [i]Love is the end of the commandment and must interpret it[/i].


In the KJV the use of the word 'law' instead of 'scripture', makes one think one could not possibly be guilty of the attitude Paul decries.

Tyndale certainly made me stop and think - and think again.... and question myself. Now, I think I'm [i]listening[/i] a little more intently.

 2007/4/27 5:54









 Re:

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Krispy, I’m not quite certain if these words are a response to my post. However, since they quickly followed my post, I couldn’t help but suspect that I may be one of those culprits who “obviously” doesn’t know you well enough.



Hey Diane...

There must be rampant paranoia on this forum some days!! :-P I absolutely did not have you in mind when I wrote that. It was a general statement because several people completely missed my point. I find it humorous that when I say something like I did about my point not getting thru to some people there is always a response from someone on the thread like you did, and about 4 PM's from people doing the same.

It wasnt pointed at anyone, dear. And I was truly decrying my own inabilities and assumptions.

It's all good. I'm smiling. Are you?

Krispy

 2007/4/27 7:48
crsschk
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re: An end of all strife ...

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For 'Gashmu' substitute 'Calvin, Wesley, Finney, Tozer, Ravenhill, Piper'... as required, to get my drift.



Still recall one of your messages here Ron and to paraphrase it, the line that stuck was on the order of, "[i]Don't you dare take my word for it![/i]" With the implication to test it all in light of scripture.

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We tend to use these 'great authorities' to short-circuit the argument. Someone is charging along and can be brought to an abrupt halt by quoting some great Christian leader. Sometimes, of course, we need to be brought to an abrupt halt and the counsel of a saint of proven godliness and wisdom can serve a useful purpose as long as we don't use it as a blunt weapon to blugeon our 'opponent' into silence.



Would certainly be guilty of this in the first instance upon quick reflection ... could but wish it was always the later, that it was always unto edification, to betterment, to growth.
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It is an error of arrogance to think that we shall settle what wiser and better men than ourselves have struggled with for centuries.


That is what is very peculiar and what Dian I believe was referring to with the ideal of 'going solo' ... "Me and my Bible". Just as well I guess it could be said "Me and all my dead friends" if that was all that was ever appealed to. Not meaning to be crass, but even these men noted their shortcomings. Ravenhill's [i]"The more I know the more I realize how much I don't know"[/i]. Tozers implicating himself in as much fault or responsibility for the very things he was observing about the church. It breaks down into sheer honesty, even the scriptures themselves not sparing the 'saints' blemishes... Moses, Noah, David, Peter ...

To throw another wrinkle in this ... Our favorite coach mentioned at the onset about 'winning the debate';

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Providing a list of teachers and theologians who agree with whatever position we're taking is a very poor way of trying to win a debate.



Pardon the didactictness and I feel pretty confident that is not the intent of meaning but thought it worth pointing out that it is often the very case, the goal in mind, to [i]win[/i] which justs feeds the pride. Think it also agrees with something inherent in what Krispy is stating;

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Providing a list of teachers and theologians who agree with whatever position we're taking



Presumption and agenda. We have seen it's outworkings here when someone, whatever their motivation, [i]brings[/i] that which is well crafted before hand, a 'teaching', a 'construct', a preposition that is already fixed and largely immovable. Because of that beginning it becomes a great defensive battle and a [i]providing a list of teachers and theologians who agree[/i], there is next to no wiggle room for learning or consideration, reconsidering because the position is 'cemented'. It ends up in a stalemate most often.

The desire to learn is what is curiously missing, the sheer love of being corrected replaced with the strange fear of 'embarrassment' or shame, of 'not measuring up', right on into the fear of man, but should we fear our own Brethren? If all they are after is to challenges us to deeper truths and crafting into the image of the Lord? Their is no embarrassment in that and shouldn't be any in admitting our shortcomings if we know enough of our own hearts.

Redundantly, Zac Poonens admonishen still reigns supreme; [i]That we ought to approach the scriptures everyday as if for the very first time.[/i] Am finding it goes even further into approaches from those who have since left us their legacy of spiritual sweat and labor in the scriptures, we have to remember that the vast majority of these are in fact, to quote Krispy again, are using; "[i][b]scripture[/b], not teachers or theologians, ... to be (their) final authority on everything[/i]"

Of course opinions will vary ;-)


_________________
Mike Balog

 2007/4/27 10:24Profile









 Re:

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The desire to learn is what is curiously missing, the sheer love of being corrected replaced with the strange fear of 'embarrassment' or shame, of 'not measuring up', right on into the fear of man, but should we fear our own Brethren? If all they are after is to challenges us to deeper truths and crafting into the image of the Lord? Their is no embarrassment in that and shouldn't be any in admitting our shortcomings if we know enough of our own hearts.



Thanks for posting this much needed word.

Humbly in Him - Jim

 2007/4/27 10:44
roadsign
Member



Joined: 2005/5/2
Posts: 3777


 Re: to Krispy

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It was a general statement because several people completely missed my point.



Krispy, reading your response makes me think about the Spirit of God - how absolutely precise his voice it when he speaks into our lives. He doesn’t mail out mass form-letters or generalized forwards to “whomever” - hoping that the right people will get the message. I think that this is one of the most exciting aspects of being one of God’s children – he is so perfectly accurate because he knows us through and through. We just could never aim as accurately as he can!

Praise God, We can trust him to get us to our final destination. And that is worth smiling about, right?

“… the mind controlled by the Spirit is life and peace..” Rom. 8:6

Diane



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Diane

 2007/4/27 12:12Profile
whyme
Member



Joined: 2007/4/3
Posts: 293


 Re:

I hate to belabor this point, but I find it ironic that many who don't support name dropping to "win a debate" do exactly that when someone else in these threads gives scripture to support any of the doctrines that accompany predestination. Those who oppose such doctine dismiss out of hand the interpretaions as just more of the "Calvinist" line.

Scripture is the source of all truth. In interpreting scripture, the teaching of divinely inspired holy men is very useful, not to win a debate but rather to broaden our thinking beyond the humble limitations or limited inspirations of our own brains. At the risk of being hounded on this, Charles Spurgeon is quoted in the most recent edition of Old Paths as saying.....

"He who will not use the thoughts of other men's brains, proves that he has no brains of his own."

 2007/4/27 14:20Profile









 Re:

whymen... I dont think anyone would disagree with you. I certainly dont. I was addressing times when an discussion is going on and on and on, and then suddenly instead of more discussion someone says something akin to "well, here's a list of men of God who believed what I believe...".

To me, it's like saying "I saw it on TV, it must be true."

My contention is... all those me could be wrong. Not heretics, mind you. Just wrong on that subject. If it goes against the clear teachings of scripture, then it matters not who believes it. We're responsible for seeking the Holy Spirit as our teacher.

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In interpreting scripture, the teaching of divinely inspired holy men is very useful, not to win a debate but rather to broaden our thinking beyond the humble limitations or limited inspirations of our own brains.



... I must disagree with you here. I dont consider Spurgeon to have been "divinely inspired". That term is more suited to those who wrote the Bible. Charles Spurgeon was certainly a holy man, but there are several areas of his theology that do not accept, and for good reason. Yet, he is one my favorites.

The authors of the Bible were divinely inspired. I bet you dont consider the translators of the KJV to be divinely inspired. Why would you suggest that Wesley, or Finney... or Spurgeon are?

But I dont believe I've ever said "Dont pay attention to teachers of old (or new)... rely on your own understanding". I've never said anything like that. I've said to be careful of teachers... especially modern day teachers.

Now, I disagree with Calvinism. I strongly believe that scripture disagrees with Calvinism. I dont think that [b]all[/b] Calvinistic theology is wrong. But the thought that God has predestined everything that has ever happened or will happen is just wrong thinking to me. It doesnt line up at all with the OT, and it doesnt line up with the NT.

If you believe that God planned and caused everything that has happened to happen... then you have to say that sin was conceived in the mind of God. God conceived murder, rape, abortion, stealing, hatred, etc.

Scripture prooves this not to be true at all. He is a holy God... not a God capable of sin.

Calvinism is what happens when you base a whole theology on a couple of verse, and do not view them in the light of scripture as a whole.

But I digress...

What your trying to say that I said is simply not true. I never said what you think I said. Not even close.

Krispy

 2007/4/27 14:41
roadsign
Member



Joined: 2005/5/2
Posts: 3777


 Re: use names wisely

Yet, there can be a strategic place for pulling names out of the bag - in order to give truth more credibility in the eyes of our listeners.

Let’s face it, for most of us, using ourselves as authorities doesn’t cut it. In my Presbyterian church I am a nobody with no spiritual authority in the eyes of the denomination - just a lowly music director, a "Gentile". Yet, when I quote a respected Presbyterian leader, like the Rev. Dr. Insightful, my idea suddenly has more clout. Thankfully there are Christian leaders I can draw from - as in the case of an article that I posted recently.

By the same reasoning, I might quote Ron Bailey on SI, but not to my neighbor who doesn't know him from Adam. (though I may say "I once heard someone say....")

And also - when talking with a Catholic, I wouldn’t quote Billy Graham, simply because BG is not an authority to THAT person. Mother Teresa might be a better person, - even to use as an example of love for Jesus.

Just today I saw some excellent articles in the Toronto Star that would be very handy “authorities” when speaking to an atheist (since they would never see the Bible as an authority).


See what I mean? You’ve got to be shrewd with your name-dropping – not to defend YOUR position (who cares about that anyway) but to nudge others towards truth.

“Be as innocent as doves and as shrewd as snakes.” Matt 10:16

Diane


_________________
Diane

 2007/4/27 15:26Profile
JaySaved
Member



Joined: 2005/7/11
Posts: 1132
Missouri

 Re:

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Now, I disagree with Calvinism. I strongly believe that scripture disagrees with Calvinism. I dont think that all Calvinistic theology is wrong. But the thought that God has predestined everything that has ever happened or will happen is just wrong thinking to me. It doesnt line up at all with the OT, and it doesnt line up with the NT.



Brother you are not describing Calvinism but Hyper-Calvinism. Hyper-Calvinism believes everything you just disagreed with.

Calvinism in its true form says that God is sovereign in salvation and that man is completely responsible for his actions.

 2007/4/27 16:51Profile





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