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HomeFree89
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Joined: 2007/1/21
Posts: 797
Indiana

 A Question on Predestination

If God predestined some to be saved and go to Heaven, wouldn't that basically mean He sent some to Hell when they never had a chance? Why would God predestine some to Hell?

Jordan


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Jordan

 2007/4/21 14:15Profile
bb6868
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Joined: 2007/5/3
Posts: 6
Staples, ON

 Re: A Question on Predestination

when you ask the question "IF God predestined." what scriptures or reason do you have to believe or think that God would ever do such a thing?
are you looking at romans 8:29 or romans 2:12. or are there other scriptures that are causing these questions? before i post my understanding of these scriptures id be curious to hear what verses youre looking at.


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Billy Bergen

 2007/5/12 23:18Profile
roaringlamb
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Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 1519
Santa Cruz California

 Re: A Question on Predestination

Jordan may I suggest a listening to these messages
[url=http://faithbibleonline.net/MP3s/The%20History%20and%20Theology%20of%20Calvinism/26%20-%20Predestination.mp3]Predestination Dr Curt Daniel[/url]

[url=http://faithbibleonline.net/MP3s/The%20History%20and%20Theology%20of%20Calvinism/28%20-%20Objections%20to%20Predestination.mp3]Objections To Predestination Dr Curt Daniel[/url]

If you would like a very thorough and easy to understand History of Calvinism, here is a link to messages on it
[url=http://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/articles/onsite/histtheocalvin.html]The History And Theology of Calvinism[/url]

Many blessings to you as you wrestle through these questions, He will guide you brother.


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patrick heaviside

 2007/5/12 23:52Profile
HomeFree89
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Joined: 2007/1/21
Posts: 797
Indiana

 Re:

Quote:

bb6868 wrote:
when you ask the question "IF God predestined." what scriptures or reason do you have to believe or think that God would ever do such a thing?
are you looking at romans 8:29 or romans 2:12. or are there other scriptures that are causing these questions? before i post my understanding of these scriptures id be curious to hear what verses youre looking at.





I didn't have any verses in mind really when I asked this question. The reason I asked it is because I don't see how Calvinist get their form of predestination from the verses that do mention predestination in the Bible.



Jordan


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Jordan

 2007/5/13 19:41Profile
HomeFree89
Member



Joined: 2007/1/21
Posts: 797
Indiana

 Re:

Thanks RL, I'll check into the links you gave me. :-)

Jordan


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Jordan

 2007/5/13 19:43Profile









 Re:

I pray you hear the truth in the words I speak and not judge by what it seems to sound like or come off as.

You have a "foundation" you start out with. You say, "Everyone must have a chance to be saved before they die." As a result, the rest of your understanding, is twisted and distorted and you cannot understand predestination because of it.

However, that isn't scriptual. The Bible never teaches that every human being will have a chance to be saved. Rather that is a demonic doctrine, sentimentalism from a wicked heart, a lie. God has purposely chosen a great majority of His creation to be fit vessels for destruction. Why? That He might "show His wrath" and "make His power known."

Yet why must God show His wrath and make His power known by casting the wicked into hell before the world began? That is such a profound question that our finite minds can only touch, not grasp. It is my oppinion that on that final day when He casts the wicked down and destroys all that came against Him, the saints will see something they never fathomed or imagined about God. They will see glory untold. The moment God casts the predestined vessel of wrath down to hell, the moment creation stands to applaud God because He has rid the earth of one vessel of wrath, even the apostles' Peter, James, and John will know God in a way they never dreamed of.

So why must God predestine some to hell? Because it is the only wise way. It is the wisest way from the mind of the infinite God whos wisdom has no limits for Him to "show His wrath" and "make His power known." It is the infintely loving way, no other way would demonstrate a shade of the love of Christ, if Christ did not do this...you ask, How could that be? Well, wait till you stand before Him on that day and I'm sure we will both see how loving Christ is when He casts the wicked, whom He foreordained to destruction, into the everlasting hell, prepared for the devil and his angels. Also, it is the infintely good way. You may say that God foreordaining some to hell isnt the infintely good way, there is a shade of black in that, there is a degree of badness to it. Yet, who are you to question the Almighty One? If God so declares it to be the infintely good way, then how dare a puny one like you or like me raise our fingers up and stick it in the face of the Him who should shew us away by His breathe.

God does send people to hell who never had a chance. You may call it unloving but I call your heart, wickedly sentimental, not biblically sound. You may call it stupid but I call it the most wisest and most glorious way, for time will tell, when you see Him do it!

Now the important thing is to not go over to the extreme and say "since God has chosen some and we cannot know who they are, we can do what we want."

That isn't so because Scripture elsewhere says to fear God and keep His commandments because He'll bring every work into judgement. It says to choose this day whom you will serve. Will you serve your lusts, your sins, your pleasures, your wicked heart, your false gods, or will you turn from your vile wretched self, your sins, your devils, your Satan, and turn to the living Christ? Will you repent and believe on Jesus.

Here is how we can know who are the elect of God and who are not: Presently, who believes on Christ? If there has ever been an ounce of faith in Christ, a small trust wholly upon Christ to save their souls from this wrath of God, this destruction, this predestination to hell, then that is the elect! If you believe on Christ, you are elected! If you believe not, your are condemned and not elected untill you believe upon Christ and then you can be fully persuaded that God has chosen you from the foundation of the world. So do you believe, do you trust in Christ? Thats what matters, lets not gain simply head knowledge of such a glorious doctrine but lets put it into practice and do it!

Out of all doctrines of the Bible, this one is perhaps my favorite.

 2007/5/13 20:50
tjservant
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Joined: 2006/8/25
Posts: 1658
Indiana USA

 Re: A Question on Predestination

God will not hold us responsible to understand the mysteries of election, predestination, and the divine sovereignty. The best and safest way to deal with these truths is to raise our eyes to God and in deepest reverence say, "0 Lord, Thou knowest." Those things belong to the deep and mysterious Profound of God's omniscience. Prying into them may make theologians, but it will never make saints.
A.W. Tozer


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TJ

 2007/5/13 21:54Profile
Logic
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Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:
HomeFree89 wrote:
God predestined some to be saved and go to Heaven, wouldn't that basically mean He sent some to Hell when they never had a chance? Why would God predestine some to Hell?


predestination is accordding to His foreknowledg of our reaction to the truth.
[b]Rom 8:29[/b][color=990000]because whom He foreknew, He also predestinated[/color]
[b]1Peter 1:2 [color=990000]according to the foreknowledge of God the Father[/b], in sanctification of the Spirit to obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace and peace be multiplied to you.[/color]

The ones that He foreknew wouldn't receive the love of the truth
[b]2Thes 2:10b[/b] [color=990000]...because they did not receive the love of the truth in order for them to be saved.[/color]

Quote:
paulmcg1 wrote:
You have a "foundation" you start out with. You say, "Everyone must have a chance to be saved before they die." As a result, the rest of your understanding, is twisted and distorted and you cannot understand predestination because of it.


How is there any jusice in not giving one a chance when there is an offer [b]for all[/b]?


Quote:
paulmcg1 wrote:
God has purposely chosen a great majority of His creation to be [b]fit vessels for destruction[/b].


[b]Rom 9:22-23[/b] [color=990000]But if God, desiring to demonstrate His wrath, and to make His power known, endured in much long-suffering vessels of wrath having been fitted out for destruction
[b]:23[/b] and that He make known the riches of His glory on vessels of mercy which He before prepared for glory, [/color]

We have our own choice weather to be vessels of mercy or vessels of wrath according to this next couple of verses:

[b]2Tim 2:20-21[/b] [color=990000]vBut in a great house not only are there vessels of gold and silver, but also of wood and of earth, and some to honor and some to dishonor.
[b]:21 Then if anyone purifies himself[/b] from these, he will be a vessel to honor, having been sanctified and made useful to the Master, having been prepared to every good work.[/color]
We have a choice to be either a vessel to honor or a vessel of wrath.

Quote:
paulmcg1 wrote:
Yet why must God show His wrath and make His power known by casting the wicked into hell before the world began?


[b]Rom 9:17[/b] [color=990000]For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.[/color]
Remember that Pharaoh hardened his own heart first, after God gave him time to repent is when God, the, hardened Pharaoh's heart.

The quote has hightlights to point out the flaws
Quote:
paulmcg1 wrote:
So why must God predestine some to hell? Because it is [b]the only wise way[/b]. It is [b]the wisest way[/b] from the mind of the infinite God whos wisdom has no limits for Him to "show His wrath" and "make His power known." It is the infintely loving way, no other way would demonstrate a shade of [b]the love of Christ[/b], if Christ did not do this...you ask, How could that be?

These next verses go against the wisdom and love that HomeFree89 preasented.

[b]James 3:17[/b] [color=990000]But [b]the wisdom that is from above[/b] is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, and easy to be intreated, [b]full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality[/b], and without hypocrisy.[/color]
[b]AND[/b]
[b]Corinth 13:4-8a[/b] [color=990000]Love has patience, is kind; love is not envious; love is not vain, is not puffed up;
[b]:5[/b] does not behave indecently, does not pursue its own things, is not easily provoked, thinks no evil;
[b]:6[/b] does not rejoice in unrighteousness, but rejoices in the truth.
[b]:7[/b] Love quietly covers all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.
[b]:8a[/b] Love never fails.[/color]

Quote:
paulmcg1 wrote:
whom He foreordained to destruction, into the everlasting hell, prepared for the devil and his angels.


If he foreordained men to destruction, then hell is not [b]only[/b] prepared for the devil and his angels!!!

Quote:
paulmcg1 wrote:
God does send people to hell who never had a chance. You may call it unloving but I call your heart, wickedly sentimental, not biblically sound. You may call it stupid but I call it the most wisest and most glorious way, for time will tell, when you see Him do it!


I call it that you have a warped sence of justice that does not reflect God's: Let it be on Earth as it is in Heaven!
Furthermore, you are not learned in the word of God as I am seeing.

 2007/5/14 0:01Profile
HomeFree89
Member



Joined: 2007/1/21
Posts: 797
Indiana

 Re:

Logic,

A lot of those quotes aren't from me. :-( You might want to check and see who said the things you quoted.

Jordan


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Jordan

 2007/5/14 15:55Profile
bb6868
Member



Joined: 2007/5/3
Posts: 6
Staples, ON

 Re: A Question on Predestination

brother Jordan,
maybe these verses help you,
Romans 2:11-12
for there is no respect of persons with God.
For as many as have sinned without the law shall also perish without the law and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged bt the law
bill


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Billy Bergen

 2007/5/14 18:00Profile





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