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RobertW
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Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
God chose us apart from anything good He knew we would do...that includes faith.



If this is true then what are we to make of Ephesians 2:8 that tells us that we are saved by grace through faith. Salvation is a gift of God, but it is received when we live by faith. This is what Abraham found and was the basis of God referring to him as His Friend.


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Robert Wurtz II

 2007/4/23 13:34Profile
JaySaved
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Joined: 2005/7/11
Posts: 1131
Kentucky

 Re:

Quote:
For many are called, but few are chosen. (Matthew 22)



Since scripture interprets scripture and scripture cannot be incorrect then the contradiction must be in our understanding.

The many called in Matthew are those who are called by the external preaching of the gospel by man. Those who are chosen are those who are called by the internal working of the Holy Spirit. By the way, if we choose God before He chooses us, then why does He refer to us as the chosen?

 2007/4/23 13:35Profile
JaySaved
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Joined: 2005/7/11
Posts: 1131
Kentucky

 Re:

Quote:
If this is true then what are we to make of Ephesians 2:8 that tells us that we are saved by grace through faith. Salvation is a gift of God, but it is received when we live by faith. This is what Abraham found and was the basis of God referring to him as His Friend.



Faith in the channel in which we receive the salvation. We must have faith, but God does not base His election and predestination upon our faith. It is God who has mercy on those whom He has mercy and we have been predestined before the creation of the world. Foreknowledge is based upon the counsel of God's will...not ours.

 2007/4/23 13:38Profile
RobertW
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Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
Are you saying that God ordained works for those in Christ to do, but did not ordain anyone to do them?



There is a 'work' that we are to do that is distinguished from what is commonly understood as works:

Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent. (John 6:29)

We are to rest from our own works as we rest in Christ (Hebrews 4). But that rest is not a rest from believing and trusting in Christ. That would be to over extend the meaning of what God said. We don't work the works of the Law- our work is to rest (i.e. believe in Christ).


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Robert Wurtz II

 2007/4/23 13:39Profile
RobertW
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Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
We must have faith, but God does not base His election and predestination upon our faith. It is God who has mercy on those whom He has mercy and we have been predestined before the creation of the world. Foreknowledge is based upon the counsel of God's will...not ours.



We described earlier who were counted for the seed. I can't improve upon that here. Just re-refer to it.


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Robert Wurtz II

 2007/4/23 13:42Profile
JaySaved
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Joined: 2005/7/11
Posts: 1131
Kentucky

 Re:

Quote:
There is a 'work' that we are to do that is distinguished from what is commonly understood as works:

Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent. (John 6:29)



You quoted Ephesians 2:10 in which we were created in Christ Jesus to do good works. You also state that Jesus does not choose us until we have faith. So I asked, "Did God ordain works to be done by those who are in Jesus without ordaining anyone to be in Jesus?"

 2007/4/23 13:46Profile
RobertW
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Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
Those who are chosen are those who are called by the internal working of the Holy Spirit. By the way, if we choose God before He chooses us, then why does He refer to us as the chosen?



God chose us because of Christ. Christ is The Seed. If we are in Him we are the seed because we are partakers of that with Him. Salvation is Christocentric. When we get our eyes off that we move into error. The Promise is to the Seed; which is Christ. If we are in Him we are counted for the seed. Not by birthright and not by good works. We are in Him by grace [i]through[/i] faith.


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Robert Wurtz II

 2007/4/23 13:47Profile
RobertW
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Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
You also state that Jesus does not choose us until we have faith. So I asked, "Did God ordain works to be done by those who are in Jesus without ordaining anyone to be in Jesus?



Anyone that is truly "in Christ" should by nature work the works of Christ. That is the beginning and the end of the ordination.


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Robert Wurtz II

 2007/4/23 13:49Profile
JaySaved
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Joined: 2005/7/11
Posts: 1131
Kentucky

 Re:

Quote:
We described earlier who were counted for the seed. I can't improve upon that here. Just re-refer to it.



We agree that those who are in Christ are counted as sons of Abraham and heirs according to the promise. We agree that apart from Christ there is no claim to the promises God made.

What we disagree on is how one gets into the Seed. You say God calls everyone equally and those who respond in faith are counted as the Seed.
I say that while the gospel goes out to all people, it is God who internally calls those whom He has chosen to be in Christ.

Jesus Himself backs this up in John 17:
These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:

2As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.

3And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

4I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

5And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

6I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.

7Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee.

8For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.

9I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.

Who gave the believers to Jesus?

 2007/4/23 13:51Profile
JaySaved
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Joined: 2005/7/11
Posts: 1131
Kentucky

 Re:

Quote:
Anyone that is truly "in Christ" should by nature work the works of Christ. That is the beginning and the end of the ordination.



What you are saying is that God brought Christ to this world, He died, was raised to life and God foreordained works to be done by those in Christ. But the problem is that Christ's death did not actually secure redemption for anyone. Christ's death did not actually save anyone. Your position says that at the point of Christ's death it was possible for no one to be in Christ because it all depends on whether or not man will have faith.

But as we all know that is not correct. Take a look at the disciples, look at Paul. God had men prepared and ready to receive the promised Holy Spirit. It is God who works in us to will and to work according to His good pleasure.

Now, don't get me wrong I am not saying we are robots. We are all responsible for our own fate, but our salvation does not depend upon what we do whether good or bad.

 2007/4/23 13:56Profile





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