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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Predestination

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JaySaved
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Joined: 2005/7/11
Posts: 1131
Kentucky

 Re:

Quote:
Jay
I basically agree with your exegesis; but have to ask you if it is in accordance with Romans 8 which guarantees the salvation of the elect? There is no way that God would let his elect perish. Those who are the elected would in other words be eternally secure.

Magnus[/quote

You are correct. All who are foreknown by God will be justified. This is similar to John 6:39-40, "And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day. For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day."

 2007/4/21 18:41Profile
Mangan
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Joined: 2007/4/19
Posts: 161
Sweden (Northern Europe)

 Re:

Thanks Jay, for your answer.

Magnus :-D


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Magnus Nordlund

 2007/4/22 4:23Profile









 Re:

I generally have something to say about most every topic on here... but I will admit to you that predestination makes my head hurt.

Krispy

 2007/4/22 5:54
Mangan
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Joined: 2007/4/19
Posts: 161
Sweden (Northern Europe)

 Re:

Krispy! Me too. The doctrine of predestination is a stumbling block for the mind (reason)but I still believe it to be accurate and according to Scripture.

It is to often our emotions that get in our way when we deal with issues of predestination or Grace (sola Gratia).

Magnus ;-)


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Magnus Nordlund

 2007/4/22 11:04Profile
CJaKfOrEsT
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Joined: 2004/3/31
Posts: 901
Melbourne, Australia

 Re:

Quote:

Mangan wrote:
There is no way that God would let his elect perish. Those who are the elected would in other words be eternally secure.



I try to keep this issue quite simple. Here's a little illustration:

Let's say you watch a movie, and someone dies near the end. At the start of the move, he's happily living out his life, and then all of a sudden, his life is over. Rewind the movie, and he's happy again. No matter how much you scream out at the screen, "Look out!! You're going to die at the end of the movie!!", he continues on, blissfully unaware, until the end of the movie.

God has his elect, but it is not so much a matter of God "not letting His elect perish" as "His elect NOT perishing". Do you see the difference? The latter is simply a fact, while the former paints God out to be busily putting out "spot fires" just in case one of His elect will perish. He is in control from the start to the finish.

But, you may ask, does that mean that we don't need to preach, because His elect will be saved anyway? Well, my response to you would be that if you are only preaching the gospel in order to "rescue lost souls", then you have missed the point. Preach in order to obey your King. It is not our job to "save the lost" but only to "warn of judgement" and "point to Jesus". This is His "chosen means". God alone saves souls. The point isn't that "sinners don't go to hell" but that "many sons be brought to glory".

Who are the elect? The ones that He saves. End of story. Are they foreordained? Of course, just as Christ's sacrifice was ordained "before the foundation of the world". But what if Adam and Eve didn't sin? But they did, didn't they, so why even ask the question?

The difficulties only come in when we try to fill in gaps that God has put in place, by speculating on things that might have been, but weren't. People have compared God's created order to a orchestral symphony. Imagine if someone filled in all the "rests" in "Fur Elise"? Somehow I don't think that it would sound as impressive.

And, by the way, Krispy... this is the secret of cutting down you paracetamol bill :-P


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Aaron Ireland

 2007/4/22 11:31Profile
Mangan
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Joined: 2007/4/19
Posts: 161
Sweden (Northern Europe)

 Re:

[size=xx-small][b]God has his elect, but it is not so much a matter of God "not letting His elect perish" as "His elect NOT perishing". Do you see the difference? The latter is simply a fact, while the former paints God out to be busily putting out "spot fires" just in case one of His elect will perish. He is in control from the start to the finish.[/b][/size]

Whats the big difference God is still the One who predestine? Explain? Are you describing an active God or a passive One?

Magnus :-(


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Magnus Nordlund

 2007/4/22 14:41Profile
RobertW
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Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
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 Re:

Quote:
but have to ask you if it is in accordance with Romans 8 which guarantees the salvation of the elect?



I have often wondered if all or most of the questions concerning predestination could be cleared up by looking at the circumstances that existed in the 1st century. 1900+ years later or even in Augustines time, the Church had long since moved away from Jerusalem and it had become 'normal' for Gentiles to believe and 'abnormal' for Jews to believe.

When the Temple was destroyed the Pharisees fled to Jamnia and started what would eventually become Rabbinic Judaism. There is a clear attempt from this point to disconnect totally from any Jewish person who believed in Jesus Christ. They even began a curse towards them in their daily prayers . Before this time mainly Jews were what comprised the Church; but as many rejected Christ and some beat Paul and others (as Jesus said they would) a feeling developed that all Jews reject Jesus and Gentiles accept Him. But during the New Testament period it was still believed that the Jews were Abraham's Seed and they made no bones about that. They preached and believed that THEY were the elect of God by birth right.

Then come the Gentiles into the Church and have to deal with the teachings of the Jews that no doubt harassed the early Church on the right hand and the left. It became necessary to demonstrate the true nature of 'election'. Election is "IN HIM."

Ephesians 1:4-5:

4. According as he hath chosen us [u]in him[/u] before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

5. Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children [u]by Jesus Christ to himself[/u], according to the good pleasure of his will,

Verse 6 also states, "In the beloved." We are chosen "in Him" and our predestination is "by Jesus Christ to Himself" so that we might be accepted "in the beloved." The key here is "in Christ" and the plan was from the foundation of the World.

This was a necessary teaching to bring correction to the Jews claiming their status as Abraham's Seed all the time. Jesus said that God of stones could raise up children unto Abraham. It is not hard to lay claim to something by natural birth; but the Kingdom is not entered by first birth, but by second birth. When we are born again of the Spirit and thereby baptized 'INTO' Jesus Christ we become one of the elect of God. Christ was the Chosen One and we, being 'in Him' are partakers of that chosen-ness. Gentiles did not come into the Kingdom because God had to have a backup plan. Romans tells us clearly that it was for to provoke the Jews to jealousy. God had already figured this all our before the foundation of the world.

So we as the Gentiles are not 'plan b'. We are all part of 'plan a' to deliver humanity from the clutches of sin and share in the inheritance of Christ. There was only ever one God- the God of the Jews and the God of the Gentiles. He was the God of the Gentiles all along. This is made clear in Romans 1-3 as some responded rightly to the voice of conscience and the Law written on their heart. That which was called 'uncircumcision' by that which is called the Circumcision- was in reality the [u]true[/u] 'Circumcision.' Why? Because they did the Lord's will though they were branded as 'dogs' or 'Gentiles' (The Goyim). And the [u]True Circumcision[/u] as far as God was concerned judged the ones who had the promises and had been entrusted with the Oracles of God because they did not walk in the light that they knew. Like Jesus told the people, "If the mighty works which are done here had been done in Nineveh they would have repented in sackloth and ashes." They did not respond rightly to the light of the Law, conscience, written on their heart or the host of oracles and miracles intended to bring them to saving faith.

So teaching on predesdination when seen rightly are not so much as many have supposed; they were necessary teaching in a time that we cannot relate to. So when we try to understand them in our context we get all confused. But they made perfect sense to the Gentiles in Paul's day and they did not cause the Theological uproar and assaults on God's character that they often do today. We have to ask, "who was these statements [i]originally[/i] written to? When we understand that we can grasp what was happening without going off the deep end.





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Robert Wurtz II

 2007/4/22 17:13Profile
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Joined: 2004/3/31
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 Re:

Quote:

Mangan wrote:
Whats the big difference God is still the One who predestine? Explain? Are you describing an active God or a passive One?



Both, and then some... :-)


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Aaron Ireland

 2007/4/22 17:33Profile
tjservant
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Joined: 2006/8/25
Posts: 1658
Indiana USA

 Re:

RobertW

Quote:
So teaching on predesdination when seen rightly are not so much as many have supposed; they were necessary teaching in a time that we cannot relate to. So when we try to understand them in our context we get all confused. But they made perfect sense to the Gentiles in Paul's day and they did not cause the Theological uproar and assaults on God's character that they often do today. We have to ask, "who was these statements originally written to? When we understand that we can grasp what was happening without going off the deep end.



Thank you for posting this.

How often do you find this to be the case?

Have we always had this tendency to over analyze, or is it more in modern times?


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TJ

 2007/4/22 17:44Profile
Mangan
Member



Joined: 2007/4/19
Posts: 161
Sweden (Northern Europe)

 Re:

RobertW
interesting point!

The problem with the Eph. text is that we still count it as containing the inerrant word of God.

Still the problem is that there are a lot of people who is not in Christ and a lot who never will be.

The reality of predestination still remains..

Magnus :-o


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Magnus Nordlund

 2007/4/22 18:03Profile





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