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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Predestination

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Mangan
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Joined: 2007/4/19
Posts: 161
Sweden (Northern Europe)

 Predestination

Sometimes I just wonder:

Is it possible to stand against the will of God, or is even that human process de facto already preordianed by God?

Think about Saul and Judas who in their sinfullness carried out the will of God (if Saul did not fell from grace David would'nt have been the King; if Judas did'nt fulfill the prophesy in the psalms Jesus would'nt have been betrayed in total accord with Scripture.

M :-o


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Magnus Nordlund

 2007/4/21 8:02Profile
JaySaved
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Joined: 2005/7/11
Posts: 1131
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 Re: Predestination

Take a look at the crucifiction of Jesus.

Acts 2:22-23 says, "Men of Israel, listen to these words: Jesus the Nazarene, a man attested to you by God with miracles and wonders and signs which God performed through Him in your midst, just as you yourselves know--this Man, delivered over by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put Him to death."

God predetermined before the world began that Jesus would die on the cross. This means that is is not possible for Jesus to die any other way at all regardless of anything man does.

Does this mean man is not responsible? Of course not, all those men involved will be judged by the just God.

 2007/4/21 8:28Profile
Mangan
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Joined: 2007/4/19
Posts: 161
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 Re:

I agree - but still: it is troublesome for the intellect to grasp (and sometimes even for the heart).

Luther's biggest doubts concerning his own status as saved man was sometimes that he was afraid of not being counted among the few elected (as Saint Augustine would have put it) for the Kingdom of God.

Jesus own teaching points to this: a few saved contra many who would be lost.

Magnus

:-o


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Magnus Nordlund

 2007/4/21 8:55Profile
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 Re:

We do not have to worry about whether or not we have been elected. The Bible is clear that all who call upon the name of the Lord will be saved and whosoever will may come freely.

Election is a blessing, not a curse.

 2007/4/21 9:22Profile
Mangan
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Joined: 2007/4/19
Posts: 161
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 Re:

That's for sure! But the flipside of that coin is eternal damnation for those who do not live in communion with Lord Jesus Christ and has the seal of the Holy Spirit (ie. Born Again/ from above).

Magnus :-o


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Magnus Nordlund

 2007/4/21 10:11Profile
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Joined: 2005/7/17
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 Re: Predestination

Quote:

Mangan wrote:
Sometimes I just wonder:
Is it possible to stand against the will of God, or is even that human process de facto already preordianed by God?

All do when they reject Christ.
[b]2Pe 3:9[/b] [color=990000]the Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, [b]not willing that any should perish, but that [size=medium]All[/size] should come to repentance.[/b][/color]

Satan did in his rebelion.
Adan & Eve did when they ate of the Tree.

 2007/4/21 11:40Profile
Mangan
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Joined: 2007/4/19
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 Re:

Yes that's a matter of fact! But we have to take the whole counsel of God (ie. the whole biblical perspective)in account. Saint Augustine did that and postulated: the two wills of God

a. the will to save everyone
b. the will to save only those who are predestined to be saved.

Augustine made his postulation because of the ambiguity of Scripture on the subject (which is nothing strange given the case of different authors formating the Scriptures over time).

Magnus

:-x


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Magnus Nordlund

 2007/4/21 11:56Profile
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 Re:

II Peter 3:9 is a beautiful verse that demonstrates the love of God.

"The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance."

Some people emphasize the words 'not willing' and say that God is so patient and not willing that any person in the world perish that he is waiting for all men to come to repentance. But this is not really what the verse is saying.

I affirm that the Lord does not delight in the death of anyone, but take a closer look at the verse.

To whom is God longsuffering? Us.

Who is the 'Us' referring to? The Beloved mentioned in verse 8. "But, beloved"

Who are the Beloved? The people Peter is addressing in his letter.
Verse 1 - "This second epistle, beloved, I now write unto you."

To whom is Peter writing this letter? Those who come to a saving knowledge of Christ--Christians.
2 Peter 1:1 - "Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ"

But this is the second letter, what does the first say about the intended audience? 1 Peter 1:2 - "Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ."

Peter is not saying in this verse that God is patient with all men hoping that every person comes to repentance. Peter is saying that the Lord is not slow in keeping his promise to his elect concerning his second coming. The Lord is longsuffering because he is not willing that anyone elected according to the foreknowledge of God should perish before the second coming and that all of the elect come to repentance.

 2007/4/21 12:36Profile
Mangan
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Joined: 2007/4/19
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 Re:

Jay
I basically agree with your exegesis; but have to ask you if it is in accordance with Romans 8 which guarantees the salvation of the elect? There is no way that God would let his elect perish. Those who are the elected would in other words be eternally secure.

Magnus

:-D


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Magnus Nordlund

 2007/4/21 13:58Profile
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 God is in Charge

Ezekiel 18:23-32

23Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord GOD: and not that he should return from his ways, and live?

24But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.

25Yet ye say, The way of the LORD is not equal. Hear now, O house of Israel; Is not my way equal? are not your ways unequal?

26When a righteous man turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and dieth in them; for his iniquity that he hath done shall he die.

27Again, when the wicked man turneth away from his wickedness that he hath committed, and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul alive.

28Because he considereth, and turneth away from all his transgressions that he hath committed, he shall surely live, he shall not die.

29Yet saith the house of Israel, The way of the LORD is not equal. O house of Israel, are not my ways equal? are not your ways unequal?

30Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, saith the Lord GOD. Repent, and turn yourselves from all your transgressions; so iniquity shall not be your ruin.

31Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

32For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord GOD: wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye.


God did predestinate us for His purpose. Read the story of creation in Genesis.

Gen 1:26
26And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness

God chose to create a creature after His own likeness for His good pleasure, for His good works before the foundations of the earth.

We all go astray as did Adam and Eve...our fleshly parents and we are consumed by sin.

However, Praise God...

Romans 5:18
18Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

However there is a stipulation to receiving this wonderful gift of grace...the same stipulation that justified Abraham, and cursed Israel in the wilderness...

Hebrews 2
3How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation

Hebrews 3:17-19
17But with whom was he grieved forty years? was it not with them that had sinned, whose carcases fell in the wilderness?
18And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not?
19So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.

Hebrews 4
11Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.

In conclusion it is my understanding through the Word that God did predestinate mankind for His glory when He created us.

Yet because of our sin we destroyed that releationship God intended. But God being full of grace and love made a way to re-establish this relationship with Him through Jesus. If we believe that God grace is available for us (land of milk and honey) then we will step into a right relationship with Him made available by Him we will have access by this faith through the Holy Spirit and only through the Holy Spirit preserving us.

 2007/4/21 14:01Profile





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