Just because someone walks an aisle, signs a card, and says they want to ask Jesus into their heart doesn't automatically make them a Christian.
2 Timothy 2:19, "...God's firm foundation stands, bearing this seal: The Lord knows those who are his, and, Let everyone who names the name of the Lord depart from iniquity."
| 2007/4/20 9:22||Profile|
I dont think Ravenhill was being discreditted... the comment was made that we need to double check every thing we're taught with scripture, even if it came from Ravenhill. I agree with that statement completely.
The Bereans double checked the Apostle Paul. Here's a guy who is writing most of the New Testament... and he was being double checked by a small group of beleivers in some church in Berea... and he commended them for it.
| 2007/4/20 9:22|
| Re: Not all Israel is Israel|
Here is what Ravenhill meant:
Romans 9:6-8 (Not all of Israel is Israel)
6Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
7Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
This statement by Ravenhill is like saying not all Christian churches are actually the body of Christ. God knows who is the real body of Christ.
Church is referred to as many things in the bible:
The Bride, the word makes many mentions of this throughout...not just in Revelation.
As a virgin
As a wife
As sheep....and so on.
Ravenhill is simply stating a truth. Yet, we must be carefull that we do not take this statement and apply it to individuals. This decision of who really is a Christian is only answered by God...we should not look into our own congregation and start deciding along with God...this person will not be part of the bride (the church) when Christ comes back.
Our job is to encourage and correct those that are in the "system" as my brother so well put it, and help them to become a part of the virgin bride.
11Speak not evil one of another, brethren. He that speaketh evil of his brother, and judgeth his brother, speaketh evil of the law, and judgeth the law: but if thou judge the law, thou art not a doer of the law, but a judge.
12There is one lawgiver, who is able to save and to destroy: who art thou that judgest another?
13Go to now, ye that say, To day or to morrow we will go into such a city, and continue there a year, and buy and sell, and get gain:
14Whereas ye know not what shall be on the morrow. For what is your life? It is even a vapour, that appeareth for a little time, and then vanisheth away.
15For that ye ought to say, If the Lord will, we shall live, and do this, or that.
16But now ye rejoice in your boastings: all such rejoicing is evil.
17Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.
| 2007/4/20 9:34||Profile|
This doesnt need to end up as a "Ravenhill Defense" thread... someone mentioned we should double check the teachers we listen to. Thats 100% scriptural.
| 2007/4/20 9:48|
How did I discredit Mr. Ravenhill? By saying that even his words are subject to the bible, just like any other man's words.
I have listened to many sermons by Mr. Ravenhill and I have a couple of his books. I am challenged every time I read or listen to him, but let's be honest here...
He was a very dogmatic individual and many times he would give his opinion in his messages (like " a guitar is a backslidden harp") and those comments can affect a young believer's walk with God. They did mine.
I have heard several preachers talk about the "Bride of Christ" as something to which the Church attains. You know..."without spot and without wrinkle" If only we do this and this, then we will be worthy to be called the "Bride of Christ"
As Krispy said the Bride of Christ is a word picture describing the relationship between God and His people. It is not something we become it is something we are because we are "in Christ". We are the Bride. We are the Body. We are the Church. We are the remnant. We are the brothers and sisters of Jesus. We are all these things, because we are "in Christ".
Like Hosea's wife we were all whores and adulteress, BUT GOD chose us and amazingly Christ came to us and bowed His knee (HE humbled Himself)
and asked us to be His Bride...amazing! He promised to make us beautiful (without spot and without wrinkle). He made us worthy simply by regarding our state. He is a faithful Husband who will never leave nor forsake us....never!
...even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were...
| 2007/4/20 9:49|
many times he would give his opinion in his messages (like " a guitar is a backslidden harp")
Ravenhill makes this "tongue-in-cheek" comment in just about every message I've heard. It always elicits laughter. Just like the one about John Wesley at his death leaving behind only a couple of coins, a Geneva gown, some silver spoons...and, umm, something else...I can't seem to remember...oh, yes! the Methodist church!
I don't think his jocular comment on guitars being backslidden harps is meant to be taken over-seriously. We know Ravenhill spiritually supported Keith Green, who used guitars in his music. The comment he made about not all believers being at the Wedding Banquet was based off of Matthew 25 and the parable of the 10 virgins. He simply noted that though all 10 of the women were virgins, 5 actually entered in while the other 5 were shut out of the Bridegroom's feast. The whole thing had to do with distinctions being made in heaven.
I'll try to get the name of the sermon, as I have it on VHS (and it's always a pain trying to find something on VHS).
Paul Frederick West
| 2007/4/20 10:05||Profile|
| Re: Mahoney|
Great response...we all should take man's understanding of the word carefully and thoughtfully....no one is to be 100% trusted...we ALL lack perfect understanding.
That's what makes SI so much fun for some and frustrating for others.
Some people believe that they have all the truth and the understanding thereof so they are always frustrated...some people are here to share what they understand up to this season of their lives and are happy just to share.
| 2007/4/20 10:06||Profile|
Can you tell us which sermon this is? It would be good to see the statement in context. Thanks.
I'll try to find it. I believe it was in either "Hell No Exits" or "Judgment Seat of Christ."
| 2007/4/20 11:19||Profile|
It's on the sermon titled, "Hell No Exits" at about 56:40.
Here is the surrounding context:
"Revelation 21, and verse 7 says, 'He that overcometh shall inherit all things.' You know, we've such sloppy theology [b]'[i]everybody that's saved is gonna be in the bride of Christ[/i]' - I don't believe it for a minute. I don't believe that. How did God make a bride for Adam? Did He take all of Adam? He took a part of Adam. And When Jesus comes for the bride He's not coming for every believer I'm sure of that.[/b] What makes us get so arrogant and feel so secure that we're so holy and wonderful? Listen, if you can't stand an extra long sermon, (if you hear me often enough you'll hear them), if you get uncomfortable after an hours preaching what in God's name are you going to do in the millenium?"
Then he goes on to talk about other things.
So after seeing it again in context, I'm still confused :-(
Is he talking about the distinction between true converts and false converts, or the distinction between Christians that are the bride and Christians that arn't the bride?
| 2007/4/20 11:41||Profile|
I never said that we shouldnt test everything. Due to a possible misunderstanding in what people call the church, the comment about testing Ravenhill could very easily be isogetically interptreted to mean "see - we caught ravenhill teaching falsely", when in fact we might just misunderstand what he is saying. I was just simply claerifying that and look forward to more discussion on the actual comment.
| 2007/4/20 11:48|