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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Total Depravity & Entire Sanctification

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PosterThread
rookie
Member



Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4790


 Re:

Rom. 1:24 Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves, 25 who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.

What does it mean for God to give man up to uncleaness?

What is Paul pointing to when he teaches..."who exchanged the truth of God for the lie." What does the "lie" point to?

In Christ
Jeff


_________________
Jeff Marshalek

 2007/4/25 1:07Profile









 Re:

Quote:
Laz,

What work of Finney would you recommend to get a bird's eye view of 'Finneyism'? I have also heard bad things about his teachings, but have yet to hear them myself from him. I would like a book or two that brings out his most controversial beliefs, but also the basics of what he taught.



I would highly recommend "The Truth Shall Set You Free" by Gordon Olson. Olson was a brilliant theologian of this past century who was a student of Finneys writings.

He was a engineer, but would save and take years off of work to dedicate 8-12 hours a day to study theology. He would study the bible in the original greek and hebrew. When he was a live, he would lecture at YWAM, Agape Force, Last Days. He was considered the "grandfather" of these evangelism focused ministries. He was also awarded degrees by multiple bible colleges including Moody Bible College and others and would lecture as Seminaries and Colleges all over.

Gordon Olson is considered the Founder of the Modern Moral Government movement.

Anyways, Olsons work is only 250 pages or so, but gives a really good overview of the systematic theology of moral government. What is great about Olsons work, is that he lists 3-10 scriptures for almost every theological sentence he wrote!

Finneys 1851 Edition of "Systematic Theology" is great. It is some 900 pages or so. And Finney quoted lots of scriptures, but not nearly as much as Olsons work. My first favorite theological book is Gordon Olsons "The Truth Shall Set You Free" and my second is Finneys 1851 Edition of "Systematic Theology".

Here is a link to buy "The Truth Shall Set You Free" by Gordon Olson:

http://www.abebooks.com/servlet/SearchResults?sts=t&an=gordon+olson&y=0&tn=truth+free&x=0&sortby=2

Quote:
How long must that heart be in a "state of selfishness" to qualify as currently unforgiven? My intention is not to be facetious. You seem confident of this belief and I'd be interested to hear your reasoning.

If there is no way to know "how long" is too long for a state of selfishness, how can I assure someone that they have any peace with Christ. Afterall, almost every sin is of itself born out of a state of selfishness, no matter how brief.



I would say that a person who is ultimately living for himself is either unconverted or backsliden, and cannot be forgiven of God until he repents and surrenders to God. There is not a single unrepentant sin that is forgiven by God. God only forgives repentant sin, sin that is turned from.

Quote:
From what source does evil flow? What about the spiritual world and it's influence on man?



The body, or flesh, is the source of [b]temptation[/b] because of it's lusts, appetites, and desires:

Ge 3:6 - And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.

Jas 1:14 - But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.

But the Will, or the heart, is the actual source of [b]sin[/b], when the Will submits to the lusts of the flesh:

Matt 7:21-23: For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness: All these evil things come from within, and defile the man.

Lu 6:45 - A good man out of the good treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is good; and an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is evil: for of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaketh.

Jas 1:15 - Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

1Jo 2:16 - For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.

The natural appetites of the body are good, if they are in their proper place and are under the control of the Spirit.

So the body, with it's lusts, is a source of temptation for us, just like it was for Eve. But the more a lust is indulged, the stronger that lust becomes. And we have inherited a physically depraved body, that is not only subjected to death and disease, but also have aggrevated lusts like a crack baby.

But self-will is the source of sin. The devil said "I will" "ascend unto the throne of God". "I will" is the cause of all sin, when people want to rule their own life and sit upon God's throne to be the god of their own universe.

 2007/4/25 15:55
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
I would say that a person who is ultimately living for himself is either unconverted or backsliden, and cannot be forgiven of God until he repents and surrenders to God. There is not a single unrepentant sin that is forgiven by God. God only forgives repentant sin, sin that is turned from.



But do I understand you to mean that a 'single unrepentant sin' is a state that a person is in rather than a single unlawful action?


_________________
Robert Wurtz II

 2007/4/25 16:46Profile









 Re:

All outward sin proceeds out of a heart that isn't right with God.

"Sins", outwardly speaking, are caused by "sin" inwardly speaking. The general root of all sin is self-will, when a person wants to serve self instead of God and neighbor. All sin, at it's core, is a state of the will or a condition of the heart.

If the will is right, the action will be right. If the heart is right, the conduct will be right. But if a persons outward action or outward conduct is not right, it shows that their internal will or inward heart is not right.

 2007/4/25 17:00
PreachParsly
Member



Joined: 2005/1/14
Posts: 2164
Arkansas

 Re:

-


_________________
Josh Parsley

 2007/4/25 18:20Profile
rookie
Member



Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4790


 Re:

Brother Jesse...

James 1:12 Blessed is the man who endures temptation; for when he has been approved, he will receive the crown of life which the Lord has promised to those who love Him. 13 Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am tempted by God”; for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone. 14 But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed. 15 Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death.



I have read of your thoughts about what Finney wrote. For the most part I see it as you do...for "when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death."

Yet I believe that there still remains a more root cause that no one is willing to see that Scripture points to.

Satan tempts us as Eve was tempted by way of the lust of the eyes, the lust of the flesh, and the pride of life. Jesus was tempted in the same manner. Yet we always find that Satan is the initiator of this sequence.

We acknowledge that man must be born again by the Spirit. We acknowledge that the relationship that God establishes with man by His Spirit is the means by which we know Christ who is the light of this world. That is one half of Scripture.

The other half of Scripture points to the corruption due to the spirit of this world. We know according to the Scripture above that God does not tempt. But Jesus tells us that we should pray in this manner...

Matt. 6:13 "And do not lead us into temptation,
But deliver us from the evil one...."

Jesus does not say deliver us from ourselves but from the evil one...

How does Satan twist the truth in a way that causes us to do it "his way?"

In Christ
jeff


_________________
Jeff Marshalek

 2007/4/26 1:14Profile
rookie
Member



Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4790


 Re:

Brother Jesse wrote:

Quote:
So the body, with it's lusts, is a source of temptation for us, just like it was for Eve. But the more a lust is indulged, the stronger that lust becomes. And we have inherited a physically depraved body, that is not only subjected to death and disease, but also have aggrevated lusts like a crack baby.



I wonder who was responsible for the development of "crack."

In Christ
Jeff


_________________
Jeff Marshalek

 2007/4/26 1:17Profile
rookie
Member



Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4790


 Re:

Quote:
"Sins", outwardly speaking, are caused by "sin" inwardly speaking. The general root of all sin is self-will, when a person wants to serve self instead of God and neighbor. All sin, at it's core, is a state of the will or a condition of the heart.



Proverbs 6:

6 For at the window of my house
I looked through my lattice,
7 And saw among the simple,
I perceived among the youths,
A young man devoid of understanding,
8 Passing along the street near her corner;
And he took the path to her house
9 In the twilight, in the evening,
In the black and dark night.
10 And there a woman met him,
With the attire of a harlot, and a crafty heart.
11 She was loud and rebellious,
Her feet would not stay at home.
12 At times she was outside, at times in the open square,
Lurking at every corner.
13 So she caught him and kissed him;
With an impudent face she said to him:
14 “I have peace offerings with me;
Today I have paid my vows.
15 So I came out to meet you,
Diligently to seek your face,
And I have found you.
16 I have spread my bed with tapestry,
Colored coverings of Egyptian linen.
17 I have perfumed my bed
With myrrh, aloes, and cinnamon.
18 Come, let us take our fill of love until morning;
Let us delight ourselves with love.
19 For my husband is not at home;
He has gone on a long journey;
20 He has taken a bag of money with him,
And will come home on the appointed day.”
21 With her enticing speech she caused him to yield,
With her flattering lips she seduced him.
22 Immediately he went after her, as an ox goes to the slaughter,
Or as a fool to the correction of the stocks,
23 Till an arrow struck his liver.
As a bird hastens to the snare,
He did not know it would cost his life.
24 Now therefore, listen to me, my children;
Pay attention to the words of my mouth:
25 Do not let your heart turn aside to her ways,
Do not stray into her paths;
26 For she has cast down many wounded,
And all who were slain by her were strong men.
27 Her house is the way to hell,
Descending to the chambers of death.

How does the harlot figure into this "condition of the heart."

In Christ
Jeff


_________________
Jeff Marshalek

 2007/4/26 1:49Profile









 Re:

Rookie,

I think you make a very good point. It is the devil that tempts us, like he did Eve. And whores or harlots is a source of temptation as well, as the women in proverbs who seduces men.

And what does the devil appeal to? He appeals to the lust of the eye, lust of the flesh, or the pride of life. He appeals to the emotions or physical desires, he appeals to the sensibilities, to the natural appetites.

Our personalities are made up of sensibilities, intelligence, and will. The will is at any moment submitted to either the sensibilities or the intelligence. That is the heart condition, or the state of the will. It is always in a state of submission to one or the other: either serving self or serving God, serving the flesh or walking after the Spirit of truth.

The devil appeals to the sensibilities, but God appeals to the intelligence. God says, "let us reason together" and the Apostle Paul would "reason daily". Repentance is when the prodical son "came to his senses".

So sin is serving the sensibilities, the lusts of the flesh, while righteousness is submitting to the truth of the Spirit presented to the intelligence. Sinners live by what feels good, Christians live by what they know is good.

But you are right. The devil has a very definate role in temptation. And it is the flesh that he appeals to. If sin was not appealing to the flesh, sin would not be a temptation at all. But Eve ate from the tree, because the tree was appealing to her flesh when she saw that it was good for food, pleasant to the eye, and good for knowledge.

But we are wholly responsible for our actions because we have freedom of will. Our will does not operate under the law of necessity, but under the law of liberty. So nobody has to sin, nobody is forced or made to sin. The devil can only tempt us, but he cannot make us sin. So we cannot blame the devil. We ourselves are entirely to blame for all of our own volitions.

 2007/4/26 15:47
Christinyou
Member



Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3683
Ca.

 Re:

Luk 23:34 Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do. And they parted his raiment, and cast lots.

Was it temptation to agree in the crucifixion of Christ?

In Christ: Phillip


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Phillip

 2007/4/26 16:29Profile





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