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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Total Depravity & Entire Sanctification

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InTheLight
Member



Joined: 2003/7/31
Posts: 2730
Phoenix, Arizona USA

 Re:

Quote:
When we see Him we will be like Him. Now whatever that means to you I can surely live with. The point is: Christ didn't come to Earth just to redeem man. If you can see that then this discussion has been worthwhile.



I think I may see something very familiar in what Ormly is trying to get across and at the same time very different. I see a strong influence in what he is writing of some very good teaching from DeVern Fromke in his books Ultimate Intention and Unto Full Stature. However, Fromke never discounted the doctrine of total depravity or taught that men become gods.

Fromke does make some good points about seeing beyond redemption to the larger purposes and intentions of God. Not to lessen in any way the magnitude of our redemption but we do need to see things from a wider perspective.

Seeing beyond redemption to God's larger purposes in no way negates the doctrine of total depravity but rather puts it in it's proper place. It's when total depravity is over-emphasized that it can become an improper starting point and limit our perspective.

Fromke also emphasizes the ancient eastern meaning of adoption which was very different from what we understand of adoption today. Back then adoption was a ceremony whereby one who was already a son came into full rights of inheritance after having been trained by a pedagogue in the ways of the father(usually around 13-14 years old). But I have never read anything from him that claimed that that full inheritance included becoming a god, rather it includes being fully conformed to Christ's image as man.


In Christ,

Ron


_________________
Ron Halverson

 2007/5/4 13:18Profile









 Re:

Quote:

PreachParsly wrote:
Quote:
However, know before you challenge. I don't believe you are there.



How does one know they "are there?" Can you share how you know if someone is "there?"



Sure. There is always a spirit bearing witness for one and another has to do with a sense of bondage to a particular vein of doctrine that says, thats all there it is and dictates anything else to be heresy. In this case, as most, it is the preaching of redemption as the only message to be grasped. Though a glorious message to be sure, it falls woefully short of what Jesus came for and what Paul wrote much about if not combined with the rest of their story.

Sometime back I recommended a book by Devern Fromke, "The Ultimate Intention". A few of the Mod's knew of it here on SI and had read it, giving it great reviews. That single book with Oswald Chambers and Tozer will say more to you then any other writers. I invite you to read them.

 2007/5/4 13:26









 Re:

Quote:

InTheLight wrote:
Quote:
When we see Him we will be like Him. Now whatever that means to you I can surely live with. The point is: Christ didn't come to Earth just to redeem man. If you can see that then this discussion has been worthwhile.



I think I may see something very familiar in what Ormly is trying to get across and at the same time very different. I see a strong influence in what he is writing of some very good teaching from DeVern Fromke in his books Ultimate Intention and Unto Full Stature. However, Fromke never discounted the doctrine of total depravity or taught that men become gods.

Fromke does make some good points about seeing beyond redemption to the larger purposes and intentions of God. Not to lessen in any way the magnitude of our redemption but we do need to see things from a wider perspective.

Seeing beyond redemption to God's larger purposes in no way negates the doctrine of total depravity but rather puts it in it's proper place. It's when total depravity is over-emphasized that it can become an improper starting point and limit our perspective.

Fromke also emphasizes the ancient eastern meaning of adoption which was very different from what we understand of adoption today. Back then adoption was a ceremony whereby one who was already a son came into full rights of inheritance after having been trained by a pedagogue in the ways of the father(usually around 13-14 years old). But I have never read anything from him that claimed that that full inheritance included becoming a god, rather it includes being fully conformed to Christ's image as man.


In Christ,

Ron



:-) :-) :-)

A confirming word. That's exciting.

Thanks Ron.

 2007/5/4 13:27
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
Sure. There is always a spirit bearing witness for one and another has to do with a sense of bondage to a particular vein of doctrine that says, thats all there it is and dictates anything else to be heresy.



All you would have to say is, "No, I do not believe that someday men will be as God in the Divine sense" and I would be content. My spirit does not bear witness to a doctrine that says God's ultimate intention is to make man into Deity. And certainly I am not moved by the notion that I am ignorant of the scriptures as I am certain that any historical Christian apologist in the world would mark such a doctrine as heresy.

Surely we all zoom out to look at the big picture. This is often my intention also. But what are we to say when a person states that man will someday be divine as God is divine? When we see Him we shall be like Him for we shall see Him as He is? Yes? But what does that mean? Are we to infer from this that we will be God's? I trow not.


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Robert Wurtz II

 2007/5/4 13:41Profile
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
Ormly's: A confirming word. That's exciting.



You mentioned a while back something to the effect that this doctrine had not been revealed before to past Christendom.

Ed.
Quote:
Ormly: Neither orthodoxy or reform has ever taught this.



Do you believe this doctrine came to you by special revelation? Do you believe you have to attain to some spiritual plane to understand it?


_________________
Robert Wurtz II

 2007/5/4 14:13Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
Nope. Just a few folk who can make proper distinctions when reading their Bible.


and who decides which distinctions are 'proper'? You?


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2007/5/4 15:17Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
But I have never read anything from him that claimed that that full inheritance included becoming a god, rather it includes being fully conformed to Christ's image as man.


Ron,
I believe and preach full conformity to our risen head... but ever as men. It is Ormly's claim that 'divinity happens' that has to be refuted. 'divinity' can never 'happen'. It is an eternal attribute and by eternal I mean backwards as well as forwards. Father, Son, Spirit have been, are and always will be 'divine'. Man can never become divine because essential attributes of divinity include omniscience, omnipotence, omnipresence. Only God can be God. Divinity is the exclusive attribute of the only God; all other expectations and strivings toward 'divinity' are part of an angelic rebellion which has fatally affected our race.

Peter says that God has given to us “Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.” (2Pet 1:4 KJVS)...but 'partaking of the divine nature' doesn't make me, or anyone else, divine. No more than 'partaking of a MacDonald's' makes me a beefburger. ;-)


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2007/5/4 15:27Profile
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
...beefburger.



On the lighter side, knowing Ron's tendency to always be pedantic, I thought you may want to know we are still calling it a [u]ham[/u]burger. I have no idea why. ;-)


_________________
Robert Wurtz II

 2007/5/4 15:40Profile
InTheLight
Member



Joined: 2003/7/31
Posts: 2730
Phoenix, Arizona USA

 Re:

Quote:
It is Ormly's claim that 'divinity happens' that has to be refuted. 'divinity' can never 'happen'.



Agreed. I was hoping to try to bring a little clarity to this thread with my last post because, to be honest, it has been painful to read through the confusion of Orm's arguments in this thread. I'm thinking that the limitations of this medium of communication make things even more confusing at times and perhaps Orm is using different meanings for terms than are commonly used, I'm not sure. His response to my last post has confused me further though. I stated that from what I could gather of his argument I saw a mixture of good and bad and he took that as a confirmation? :-?

In Christ,

Ron


_________________
Ron Halverson

 2007/5/4 15:57Profile
InTheLight
Member



Joined: 2003/7/31
Posts: 2730
Phoenix, Arizona USA

 Re:

Quote:
On the lighter side, knowing Ron's tendency to always be pedantic, I thought you may want to know we are still calling it a hamburger. I have no idea why.



Hehe, I noticed that too. As to why that name, the answer I have heard is that the hamburger first came from Hamburg, Germany, it was called Hamburg meat and then just hamburger. Seems odd though that that name wasn't adopted in England, they just don't know their english over there. :-P

In Christ,

Ron


_________________
Ron Halverson

 2007/5/4 16:03Profile





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