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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Total Depravity & Entire Sanctification

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 Re:

[b]Now I understand Augustines Original Sin
[/b]

My wife and I are working with a spanish Lutheran Pastor who is helping us to the legal paper work for Krista's perminant residency in America. (She is a Canadian).

We were in his office yesturday and during a break I started to look at some of the Pastors books. I found a Lutheran "Christian Dogmatics" volume set.

I reviewed it. It was typical Augustinian and Lutheran. I read a quote from Luther on the atonement, "if you deny that Jesus Christ became a sinner, you might as well deny that He was crucified, died, and rose again...He took our original sin and we took his sinlessness." (That is a debate for another thread)

But I found a quote from Augustine that cleared up my whole understanding of his teaching! I hear from many people that "we inherit sin at birth" but nobody has ever been able to answer "which sin do we inherit?". Finally, Augustine answered my question!

Augustine believed that we inherited concupiscence or desires (like sexual desires) from Adam which are sin themselves. Augustine did not believe that Adam and Eve had sexual desires before the fall. He had an arguement as to how they were going to populate the planet without sexual desire, but I do not know his arguement.

Anyways, Augustine taught that involuntary lusts, cravings, and desires were not temptation but were sin themselves. And so we inherit sin because we inherit desires or lusts like sexual desires.

This is what I have found with others who believed in original sin like Edwards and even Samuel Brengle.

Edwards, after the teachings of John Lock, only believed that man was made of two parts: Will and Intellect. He did not believe in a seperate faculty of emotions, but that Emotions or desires fell under the Will. So a physical attraction is adultery.

Samuel Brengle, who believed in second blessing holiness (when original sin is supposedly removed), taught that if you are not sanctified you will have fleshly cravings or physical desires. But when you are sanctified, those cravings and desires are gone.

Many theologians did not make a distinction between metaphysics and ethics, between involuntary cravings and voluntary committals of the will. But Finney, with his distinct lawyer mind, did make that proper distinction.

I agree with Finney that Adam and Eve were given natural desires which could be satisfied lawfully or unlawfully. And we inherit an aggrevated temptation, or aggrevated lusts, but that these are not sin in and of themselves. Rather, physical lusts, cravings, and desires are temptation. But these physical temptations because immoral sin when the will voluntarily submits to them, gratifies them unlawfully, and serves them supremely.

Physical lusts, which are truly hereditary, are not sin themselves but are temptation. A crack baby is not only a perfect illustration, but a crack baby is the point itself. A baby who had a drug abusing parent is born with physical desires for that drug. But the baby is not guilty of the parents sin just because it inherits the parents physical desires. Rather, only when the child knows right from wrong, and chooses to serve the flesh over the Spirit, is it then morally guilty.

What is physical is not moral, and what is moral is not physical. All morality is of the inward intention of the heart, or of the committal of the will, but not a physical body. Your body (nature) cannot be sinful. It can be a source of temptation, but not sin itself.

And one last point I've been pondering. Sin is not merely an outward executive action. But sin is a state of the will, a condition of the heart. Sin is when a persons heart intention is to serve themselves, to serve their sensibilities, but righteousness is when the hearts intention is to serve God, to submit to the truth of God revealed to the intelligence by the Spirit. Sin and righteousness do not consist in mere outward executive actions, but sin and righteousness consist in a state of being, in a state of the will or of the heart.

And unless you decide it, it is not your decision. Unless you originate the willing, it is not your will. So each man originates his own sin.

The bible makes a distinction between natural lust and voluntary sin. It says that there is a lust which comes before sin:

[b]Jas 1:15[/b] - Then when [b]lust[/b] hath conceived, it bringeth forth [b]sin:[/b] and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

 2007/4/24 14:37
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
Your body (nature) cannot be sinful. It can be a source of temptation, but not sin itself.



So do you believe in Original Sin as it pertains to [i]pollution[/i] but not [i]guilt[/i]?

Pollution only makes one [i]bent[/i] towards sinning. When I say Sin Nature- that is what I mean- [i]bent[/i] towards sinning. Not that having the Sin nature means I have sinned- it means I had a nature to commit sins. This does not mean I was not in control of my actions and could not have chosen otherwise. I am not 'forced' to sin by the Sin nature- I am 'tempted' to commit sin by the sin nature and that nature is within because I was 'in Adam' and the Body of Sin. Now I am under the Last Adam and am in the "Body of Christ." God now works in me both to will and to do His good pleasure.

Your findings on lust being sin are interesting. It is commonly known that sexuality became taboo for a long time but this was never a biblical teaching. Song of Solomon is proof enough for that. God would not articulate the process of being in love within the context of marriage if it was sinful. Some even thought it a sin to look on their own nakedness.





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Robert Wurtz II

 2007/4/24 14:50Profile
RobertW
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Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
Finney did not believe that if you have one unconfessed sin you went to hell and neither do I. Sin is not merely an outward executive action, but sin is a condition of the heart or a state of the will, when a persons intention is to serve self rather then to love God and neighbor.



Maybe I could ask the question a little differently. If a person yields to the lust that is in them and commits a sin- does that sin put their soul in danger right then and there? Are they in a state of being lost until they confess that sin?


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Robert Wurtz II

 2007/4/24 15:07Profile









 Re:

Quote:
So do you believe in Original Sin as it pertains to pollution but not guilt?

Pollution only makes one bent towards sinning



It seems that what you call pollution is what Finney taught as physical depravity. We inherit a physically depraved body, with aggrevated lusts, which bends us or biases us towards sin. But that the physically depraved body (nature) is not sin itself.

Rather guilt is respecting moral depravity, not physical depravity. Moral depravity is referencing a man's personal moral character which is developed by a man's personal moral choices.

So we are born physically biased towards gratification, but we are not guilty of evil until we choose evil ourselves.

I think Finney's teachings on physical and moral depravity are excellent and deffinately what I read in my bible.

But Augustines doctrine of "inherited sinful nature" or "Original Sin" that our body is a sin itself because it has involutary lusts for gratification, is not at all what I read in my bible. Original Sin combines "Physical Depravity" and "Moral Depravity" and makes no distinction between metaphysics and ethics.

Quote:
If a person yields to the lust that is in them and commits a sin- does that sin put their soul in danger right then and there? Are they in a state of being lost until they confess that sin?



[b]Lu 12:46[/b] - But and if that servant say in his [b]heart[/b], My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken; The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and [b]will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him [i]his portion with the unbelievers[/i]. [/b]

A person in wilfull sin must do more then confess it, they must repent from it, or else they will perish. Luke 13:3

Neither death, nor a glorified body will change a man's will. They must get their heart right now, and persevere until the end, or else they will not be saved. Matt 24:13

Sin is not a mere action, but sin is a state of the will. If a person dies in a state of having a selfish will, God cannot forgive him. God can only forgive repentant sin, or else His Kingdom becomes the Kingdom of devils and Heaven will be filled with sin. And God will not allow such to happen.

But like that parable I quoted shows, if the Master returns and his servants "heart" is not right, he will have "his portion with the unbelievers", though he himself is not an unbeliever but rather is a backslider in heart.

 2007/4/24 15:21
letsgetbusy
Member



Joined: 2004/9/28
Posts: 957
Cleveland, Georgia

 Re:

"I had heard a lot of bad things about "Finney and his theology" which to me meant it was either bad or really good. But when I started reading him for myself, I thought it was awesome, spiritual, and totally scriptural."

Laz,

What work of Finney would you recommend to get a bird's eye view of 'Finneyism'? I have also heard bad things about his teachings, but have yet to hear them myself from him. I would like a book or two that brings out his most controversial beliefs, but also the basics of what he taught.


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Hal Bachman

 2007/4/24 23:56Profile
theopenlife
Member



Joined: 2007/1/30
Posts: 926


 Re:

Lazarus, you wrote:

Quote:
Sin is not a mere action, but sin is a state of the will. If a person dies in a state of having a selfish will, God cannot forgive him. God can only forgive repentant sin, or else His Kingdom becomes the Kingdom of devils and Heaven will be filled with sin. And God will not allow such to happen.



How long must that heart be in a "state of selfishness" to qualify as [i]currently unforgiven[/i]? My intention is not to be facetious. You seem confident of this belief and I'd be interested to hear your reasoning.

If there is no way to know "how long" is too long for a state of selfishness, how can I assure someone that they have any peace with Christ. Afterall, almost every sin is of itself born out of a state of selfishness, no matter how brief.

 2007/4/25 0:28Profile
rookie
Member



Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4791


 Re:

Brother Robert wrote:

Quote:
I am not 'forced' to sin by the Sin nature- I am 'tempted' to commit sin by the sin nature and that nature is within because I was 'in Adam' and the Body of Sin.



Where according to Scripture does temptation find is source?

In Christ
Jeff


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Jeff Marshalek

 2007/4/25 0:55Profile
rookie
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Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4791


 Re:

Brother Jesse wrote:

Quote:
So we are born physically biased towards gratification, but we are not guilty of evil until we choose evil ourselves.



From what source does evil flow? What about the spiritual world and it's influence on man?

In Christ
jeff


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Jeff Marshalek

 2007/4/25 0:58Profile
Christinyou
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Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3693
Ca.

 Re:

Hbr 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

We have unto death and Judgement. Death in he who has already been judged or life in Him who took our Judgement on Himself and was judged in our place, to set us free.

In Christ: Phillip


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Phillip

 2007/4/25 0:59Profile
rookie
Member



Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4791


 Re:

Quote:
If there is no way to know "how long" is too long for a state of selfishness, how can I assure someone that they have any peace with Christ. Afterall, almost every sin is of itself born out of a state of selfishness, no matter how brief.



The Holy Spirit is our seal. God does not leave us alone to our own imagination. Is the Holy Spirit bringing His hand upon you to confess and repent? That is how we are to know...

In Christ
jeff


_________________
Jeff Marshalek

 2007/4/25 1:02Profile





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