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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Limited: Some Sin, Some People?

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 Limited: Some Sin, Some People?

I have attended two easter services where I have heard preaching on the atonement. Both times it was the Payment of a Debt view.

To my surprise, the doctrine of Limited Atonement is even more limited then I thought!

After listening to a good godly preacher today preach about the atonement I inquired from him regarding his thoughts on some issues. He holds to the penalty/punishment view of the cross and that those who believe that Christ paid their debt will be saved.

He believes that Christ died so that all might be saved, but that the benefit of salvation is only extended to those who repent and believe. To this, I agree.

But I ask him: "Given your view of the nature of the atonement, being our punishment or the payment of our debt, [b]why[/b] must a person believe? Didn't Christ pay their debt whether they believe it or not?"

His response: "Yes, Christ suffered the penalty of all their sin, except for the sin of unbelief. Jesus did not die for the sin of unbelief."

In this view, sinners cannot go to hell for murdering, fornicating, lying, blaspheming, stealing, etc etc (Rev 21:8) because Christ already received he punishment for all these types of sins, but rather sinners can only go to hell for unbelief because Christ did not die for the sin of unbelief.

My immediate thought is regarding atheism or unbelief. If Christ did not die for the sin of unbelief, can unbelief be forgiven? Can an atheist have his unbelief forgiven? If Christ did not die for unbelief, then unbelief cannot be forgiven, so unless you have always believed you cannot be saved. I find this to be very contrary to the scripture.

What do you guys think?

The scripture says [b]that[/b] we must believe that Christ died for us, but for those of you who hold to the payment view, [b]why[/b] must we believe that Christ died for us?

Have you guys heard this view before that Christ did not die for the sin of unbelief? Is there any scriptures that explicitly say Christ died for some, but not all sin?

Any thoughts?

 2007/4/9 3:52
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re: Limited: Some Sin, Some People?

Quote:
His response: "Yes, Christ suffered the penalty of all their sin, except for the sin of unbelief. Jesus did not die for the sin of unbelief."


I think that's a bit of special pleading and won't hold water. Either he bore all our sin or he didn't; we can't have it both ways.


Quote:
he scripture says that we must believe that Christ died for us, but for those of you who hold to the payment view, why must we believe that Christ died for us?


John Murray wrote a book entitled "Redemption; accomplished and applied". I have not read the book but I love the title. Paul writes of salvation that 'it is faith according to grace' or as the KJV has it "it is of faith, thatis might be according to grace". Grace will never impose anything. It will make full provision but never it will never compel.

The gospel is the power of God to salvation to everyone who believes... not to everyone who is 'elected'.


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2007/4/9 4:44Profile









 Re:

Yea the "Jesus died for all our sins but not the sin of unbelief" simply doesn't sit right with me and I can't find it in scripture.

What I am trying to wrap my mind around is this. If the death of Christ was the payment for all our sins, then isn't all of our sins paid for whether we believe it or not?

If Christ satisfied justice on behalf of all the sins of the world, then wouldn't the whole world be free from the penalty of justice, whether they believe it or not?

Supposing that payment view is correct, [b]why[/b] is faith necessary in order for the benefits of the atonement to be applied? If Christ took your punishment, wouldn't you have no punishment to face, believe it or not?

 2007/4/9 4:51
JaySaved
Member



Joined: 2005/7/11
Posts: 1131
Kentucky

 Re:

Quote:
Yea the "Jesus died for all our sins but not the sin of unbelief" simply doesn't sit right with me and I can't find it in scripture.

What I am trying to wrap my mind around is this. If the death of Christ was the payment for all our sins, then isn't all of our sins paid for whether we believe it or not?



John 17:1-2
"When Jesus had spoken these words, he lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, "Father, the hour has come; glorify your Son that the Son may glorify you, since you have given him authority over all flesh, to give eternal life to all whom you have given him."

6-10, "I have manifested your name to the people whom you gave me out of the world. Yours they were, and you gave them to me, and they have kept your word. Now they know that everything that you have given me is from you. For I have given them the words that you gave me, and they have received them and have come to know in truth that I came from you; and they have believed that you sent me. I am praying for them. I am not praying for the world but for those whom you have given me, for they are yours. All mine are yours, and yours are mine, and I am glorified in them."

We must remember that Jesus came to seek and save that which was lost. (Luke 19:10) Jesus bore the sins of His people. Matthew 1:21, "She will bear a son, and you shall call his name Jesus, for he will save his people from their sins." Jesus died for only those who would have faith and God works in them to bring them to repentance.

For God to punish a person for any sin that has been atoned for would be unjust.

God Bless.

 2007/4/9 10:11Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

The Father set forth the Son as a propitition; the payment paid to remove the offence of the transgression as a precursor to reconciliation. As a consequence God is both just and the justifier of him that believes in Jesus. The payment creates the basis for the reconciliation. For the reconciliation to be effective the prodigal has to return home with the words "I have sinned..."


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2007/4/9 16:37Profile





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