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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : End of 69th week

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JaySaved
Member



Joined: 2005/7/11
Posts: 1131
Kentucky

 Re:

First, let's look at Daniel 9
24Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
25Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
26And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
27And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Seventy weeks are determined to do the following:
1. Finish the transgression
2. Make an end of sins
3. Make reconciliation for iniquity
4. Bring in everlasting righteousness
5. Seal up vision and prophecy
6. Anoint the most holy.

None of those things were fulfilled when Nehemiah rebuilt the temple.

Also, the prophesy says that from the commandment to restore and build Jerusalem unto Messiah will be 69 “weeks/sevens”. Your interpretation fails to account for the prophesy of Jesus. Jesus did was not born until around 4 B.C. and was not anointed until around 26 A.D. and was not crucified until around 29 A.D. How can you say this prophesy speaks of the rebuilding of the Temple by Nehemiah?

Also, brother please know that your interpretation fails to understand that the word "weeks/sevens" is not the same as the word "years". One speaks of a period of 7 years the other speaks of one year.

 2007/4/3 11:51Profile
JaySaved
Member



Joined: 2005/7/11
Posts: 1131
Kentucky

 Re:

Logic, that is not a parenthesis that is a Divine Plan.

 2007/4/3 11:53Profile
lovegrace
Member



Joined: 2006/8/12
Posts: 313


 Re:

JaySaved,

Why just look at one book? Daniel isn't the only book that refers to these 70 years.

Zechariah, Haggai (indirectly), Jeremiah, and also Nehemiah, Ezra, 2 Chron.

Quote:
How can you say this prophesy speaks of the rebuilding of the Temple by Nehemiah?



Well, because historically it adds up. When your theory (490 years) don't add up with history. Also, if your theory is correct (490 years) then where is the 103 years that are missing? Because these years HAD to be in movement during Zecheriah's time because he said they were already occuring. (His time is 520-518)

Literally 70 years from 586 B.C.(The time of Jeremiah's prophesy) The temple was restored by Nehemiah and the Jewish people.

You said that it fulfills 'none' of these. Well, I challenge you to think of it the opposite way. It fulfills ALL of them. Ezra chapter 1 talks of the INGATHERING or RESTORATION of the Jews back to their own country. The rest, I'm still looking into.

I will again post the truth about the '70 weeks/years'.

70 years was spoken of by Jeremiah, Daniel, and Zechariah. In that order. The only one to ever refer to these 'years' as 'weeks' was Garbriel. And HELLO, it's an ANGEL! Angels don't die. They look at time differenly than us. One year to us, would be something minimal like a week to them!!

Also, 'the year of the Lord' has been since A.D.29 or so. Thats almost 2000 years. 2000 years = one year? Yes, to the Lord.

Those with longer life-spans look at time differently. Another simple comparision is that, young people hate waiting 20 minutes because its 'forever'. But older people say 20 minutes goes by 'too quick'. It's the perception of the person.

Longer life-span. Quicker 'time' becomes, in your own perception.

Quote:
Also, brother please know that your interpretation fails to understand that the word "weeks/sevens" is not the same as the word "years". One speaks of a period of 7 years the other speaks of one year.



Please back this up with Scripture.

 2007/4/3 13:34Profile
JaySaved
Member



Joined: 2005/7/11
Posts: 1131
Kentucky

 Re:

Quote:
Why just look at one book? Daniel isn't the only book that refers to these 70 years. Zechariah, Haggai (indirectly), Jeremiah, and also Nehemiah, Ezra, 2 Chron.



Lovegrace, I am not denying that the Bible predicts 70 years of Babylonian captivity. What I am denying is that the 70 weeks prophesy is a prophesy about the Babylonian captivity.

Quote:
Jaysaved wrote:
How can you say this prophesy speaks of the rebuilding of the Temple by Nehemiah?

Lovegrace wrote:
Well, because historically it adds up. When your theory (490 years) don't add up with history. Also, if your theory is correct (490 years) then where is the 103 years that are missing? Because these years HAD to be in movement during Zecheriah's time because he said they were already occuring. (His time is 520-518)
Literally 70 years from 586 B.C.(The time of Jeremiah's prophesy) The temple was restored by Nehemiah and the Jewish people.



With the decree to rebuild Jerusalem given in Ezra 7:11-28 around 457 B.C., 483 years later (69 sevens) would bring us around 27 B.C. which is the time when Jesus began His ministry and was anointed by the Holy Spirit. So, we see that this prophesy in Daniel refers to the coming of Jesus—the Messiah.

Quote:
You said that it fulfills 'none' of these. Well, I challenge you to think of it the opposite way. It fulfills ALL of them. Ezra chapter 1 talks of the INGATHERING or RESTORATION of the Jews back to their own country. The rest, I'm still looking into.
I will again post the truth about the '70 weeks/years'.



Explain to me how Nehemiah building the Temple fulfilled any of these:
1. Finish the transgression
2. Make an end of sins
3. Make reconciliation for iniquity
4. Bring in everlasting righteousness
5. Seal up vision and prophecy
6. Anoint the most holy.
Also, how does the ingathering and restoration of the Jews fulfill any of the above?

Quote:
70 years was spoken of by Jeremiah, Daniel, and Zechariah. In that order. The only one to ever refer to these 'years' as 'weeks' was Garbriel. And HELLO, it's an ANGEL! Angels don't die. They look at time differenly than us. One year to us, would be something minimal like a week to them!!



I am sorry, I know you are serious, but this is one of the most absurd things I have ever heard. Please pray over this interpretation.

Quote:
Also, 'the year of the Lord' has been since A.D.29 or so. Thats almost 2000 years. 2000 years = one year? Yes, to the Lord.
Those with longer life-spans look at time differently. Another simple comparision is that, young people hate waiting 20 minutes because its 'forever'. But older people say 20 minutes goes by 'too quick'. It's the perception of the person.
Longer life-span. Quicker 'time' becomes, in your own perception.



See last comment.

Quote:
Jaysaved wrote:
Also, brother please know that your interpretation fails to understand that the word "weeks/sevens" is not the same as the word "years". One speaks of a period of 7 years the other speaks of one year.



Lovegrace wrote:
Quote:
Please back this up with Scripture.



Let’s take Daniel 9:2, “In the first year of his reign I Daniel understood by books the number of the years, whereof the word of the LORD came to Jeremiah the prophet, that he would accomplish seventy years in the desolations of Jerusalem.”

Year is Shaneh
Definition
1. year
1. as division of time
2. as measure of time
3. as indication of age
4. a lifetime (of years of life)

Now look at Daniel 9:24, “Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.”

Weeks or Sevens is Shabuwa`
Definition
1. seven, period of seven (days or years), heptad, week
1. period of seven days, a week
1. Feast of Weeks
2. heptad, seven (of years)

So you see that the word for ‘years’ and the word for ‘weeks’ are different. Weeks does not mean one year just as one year does not mean a week.

 2007/4/3 14:48Profile
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:

JaySaved wrote:
Logic, that is not a parenthesis that is a Divine Plan.

Good point, however, it does tell us of the parenthesis which sais, "until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in.".

I think that when the Gentiles "comes to fullness" the parenthesis will close and God will turn His attention back to Israel.

Instead of "parenthesis" I like to call it the "
prophetic Stop Watch"

 2007/4/3 15:42Profile
JaySaved
Member



Joined: 2005/7/11
Posts: 1131
Kentucky

 Re:

Quote:
Instead of "parenthesis" I like to call it the "prophetic Stop Watch"



No! Not the stopwatch! :-)

Whether it is a parenthesis or a stopwatch, my problem with it is that it implies "change of plan".

It also implies that no prophesy occurs during the "church age", but that is not true. Jesus prophesied that Peter would live to be an old man. This was prophesy that was fulfilled during the “church age”. Luke 21:18-19, “Verily, verily, I say unto thee, When thou wast young, thou girdest thyself, and walkedst whither thou wouldest: but when thou shalt be old, thou shalt stretch forth thy hands, and another shall gird thee, and carry thee whither thou wouldest not. This spake he, signifying by what death he should glorify God. And when he had spoken this, he saith unto him, Follow me.”

Also, Jesus speaks of the destruction of the Temple in 70 A.D. This was fulfilled during the church age.

Paul prophesied in Acts 20:28-30 that false teachers would come into the church after he dies. This was fulfilled during the church age: “Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood. For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock. Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.”

In Matthew 24:14 Jesus prophesies that the gospel will be preached in all the world and then the end will come, “And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.”

So we see that there is no parenthesis in prophesy and there is no stopping of prophesy during the church age. God’s “prophetic stop watch” is still ticking.

 2007/4/3 16:12Profile
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:
JaySaved wrote:
So we see that there is no parenthesis in prophesy and there is no stopping of prophesy during the church age. God’s “prophetic stop watch” is still ticking.


If the “prophetic stop watch” never stoped, then it should have wound down now and Daniel 9:25-27 is all fulfilled now.

I have a question then, explain how Daniel 9:27 has passed?

What covenant did he confirm with the many?

 2007/4/3 18:25Profile
staff
Member



Joined: 2007/2/8
Posts: 1391


 Re:

Hi,
In Daniel 9.24 the 70wks are for the Jews alone and the holy City is Jerusalem.No mention of anyone else.One view would have a gap between 69 and 70 lasting almost 2000yrs and one would have it run straight through,no stops.The problem with running straight is that you can only get 69 and a half wks Counting Jesus ministry period.That leaves 3 and half yrs or a half a wk to make up which is not mentioned in scripture or clearly marked out which it would have to be to make that any way valid.
Even if that were correct and we took into account Jewish midrash that view of the 70th wk may only be A fulfillment with a future ultimate fulfillment to come in the End.So their is a possibility both views are correct.But I would be interested to see what scripture you qoute for the 3 and a half years after Christs Crucifixtion.

Dan 9:24 ¶ Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
Rgds Staff

 2007/4/3 18:39Profile
ChrisJD
Member



Joined: 2006/2/11
Posts: 2895
Philadelphia PA

 Re:

Hi again everyone.

Lovegrace,


"Why just look at one book? Daniel isn't the only book that refers to these 70 years."


I can understand that. Have found it usefull so often to compare scripture with scripture too.

In this case though, maybe there is something else in view here in this passage of Daniel and it might be helpfull to consider the passage in isolation [b]first[/b]...even apart from some of the other views you may have, and then go through the scripture to see what other portions line up with it, sort of like where Isaiah said...



[i]For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little[/i]


Am thinking here maybe start with verse 24, considering some of the things that the angel says are to be brought about in connection with these 70 weeks...


for instance [i]...to make an end of sins[/i]

And then see what would match up in the rest of scripture.


Just some suggestions. In any case I wish you well.

Chris


_________________
Christopher Joel Dandrow

 2007/4/3 19:01Profile
JaySaved
Member



Joined: 2005/7/11
Posts: 1131
Kentucky

 Re:

Quote:
What covenant did he confirm with the many?



Jeremiah 31:31-32, "Behold, the days are coming, declares the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah, not like the covenant that I made with their fathers on the day when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, my covenant that they broke, though I was their husband, declares the LORD."

Luke 22:19-21, "And he took bread, and when he had given thanks, he broke it and gave it to them, saying, "This is my body, which is given for you. Do this in remembrance of me." And likewise the cup after they had eaten, saying, "This cup that is poured out for you is the new covenant in my blood. But behold, the hand of him who betrays me is with me on the table."

Hebrews 8:8, "For he finds fault with them when he says: "Behold, the days are coming, declares the Lord,when I will establish a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah,"

Hebrews 8:13, "In speaking of a new covenant, he makes the first one obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away."

Hebrews 9:15, "Therefore he is the mediator of a new covenant, so that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance, since a death has occurred that redeems them from the transgressions committed under the first covenant."

Hebrews 12:24, "and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel."

Edit:
The covenant was to the Jews for the 70th week. Remember that Jesus ministry was a limited/selective ministry during His time on Earth. For example:
Matthew 10:5-7,
"These twelve Jesus sent out, instructing them, "Go nowhere among the Gentiles and enter no town of the Samaritans, but go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. And proclaim as you go, saying, 'The kingdom of heaven is at hand."

Matthew 15:22-24,
"And behold, a Canaanite woman from that region came out and was crying, "Have mercy on me, O Lord, Son of David; my daughter is severely oppressed by a demon." But he did not answer her a word. And his disciples came and begged him, saying, "Send her away, for she is crying out after us." He answered, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel."

Jesus did heal non-Jews, but His ministry was focused on the Jews. During this 70th week, Jesus was "cut off" and then the gospel message was taken to the Gentiles.

What I find so impressive is Jesus' words in Luke 19:41-44, "And when he drew near and saw the city, he wept over it, saying, "Would that you, even you, had known on this day the things that make for peace! But now they are hidden from your eyes. For the days will come upon you, when your enemies will set up a barricade around you and surround you and hem you in on every side and tear you down to the ground, you and your children within you. And they will not leave one stone upon another in you, because you did not know the time of your visitation."

Why did Jesus call this "the time of your visitation"? Because Daniel prophesied that Jesus --the promised Messiah--would be there at this time and the Jewish people did not know it...even though Daniel told them.

 2007/4/3 21:39Profile





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