| End of 69th week|
Explanation From the going forth of the order to rebuild Jerusalem until Messiah the King was 69 weeks of years. 483 years. April 5th 32 AD was the probable date that Jesus rode into Jerusalem on the Colt of an ass and thus ended the 69 weeks. Jesus was crucified 5 days later and the church age began at Pentecost 50 days after that. The Church Age is a period of unknown length after which comes the final week of Daniels 70 weeks. The 70 weeks are for Israel, and Gods plan to bring them back to Himself. The Church is the Parenthesis between the 69th week (Apr 5 32AD and the start of the Tribulation or more accurately the 70th week)
We therefore cannot be part of this when the Church is full we are out of here.
| 2007/4/2 15:32||Profile|
| Re: End of 69th week|
It's sad that you believe that. Because Daniel is quoting from Jeremiah. (The 70 weeks/years) Then Zechariah states that these '70 years/weeks' are occurring during his time.
Zech. 1:12 (NASB)
12 Then the angel of the LORD said, "O LORD of hosts, how long will You have no compassion for Jerusalem and the cities of Judah, with which You have been indignant [b]these seventy years[/b]?"
The book of Daniel was written in 605 BC - 562 BC.
The book of Jeremiah was written in 586 B.C.
That book [of Zechariah] was written in 520-518 BC.
So, somewhere between 520-518 B.C. these 70 years/weeks were occurring (Zech.1:12,7:5), according to the written Word of God. What year was it when Zech. wrote those two verses? I have no idea. But, I'm willing to give a rough guess. (Using the origin of the dates)
If the '70 years/weeks' started at the writting of Jeremiah. And also, if '70 years/weeks' is literal then look at the work below.
586 - (minus) 70 = (equals) 516 B.C. *(This marks the completion of '70 years/weeks')
So, that would put Zech. around year...66 to 68th year.
But, if the '70 years/weeks' really means 490 years. (This is said by many pre-tribbers, how they get that is....70 times 7. Why? I have no idea, but still [u]could[/u] be possible)
586 - (minus) 490 = (equals) 96 B.C. *(This marks the completion of '70 years/weeks')
So, that would put Zech. around '9th' to '10th' year of these long '70 years'.
So, according to your post (which is the popular belief of 'pre-tribers') says that the 70 years occurs between 32 A.D.- 450 B.C. (or so; give or take 5 years). That goes against what Scripture is stating in Zech. 1:12 & 7:5.
So, my question is:
Why does the '70 years/weeks' start at 450 B.C. instead of earlier about 100 years?
| 2007/4/2 16:30||Profile|
"Why does the '70 years/weeks' start at 450 B.C. instead of earlier about 100 years"
I think there is a really neat passage from the book of Nehemiah, chapter 2, that looks to be exactly what the angel mentions to Daniel chapter 9, concerning the start of the weeks, where it says
[i]...And it came to pass in the month Nisan, in the twentieth year of Artaxerxes the king[/i]v1
Nehemiah asked of him...
[i]...that thou wouldest send me unto Judah, unto the city of my fathers' sepulchres, that I may build it.[/i]v5
[i]If it please the king, let letters be given me to the governors beyond the river, that they may convey me over till I come into Judah[/i]v7
which it appears he was granted
[i]...And the king granted me, according to the good hand of my God upon me.[/i]v8
I think it matches very well because it appears that everything concerning these weeks was to commence [i] from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem[/i].
And also, maybe you are thinking of the 70 years of captivity mentioned by Jeremiah? This passage in Daniel 9 looks as though it was given by revelation from the angel. What do you think?
Christopher Joel Dandrow
| 2007/4/2 17:44||Profile|
Interesting Chris, I had to do some research to answer this question because many things that I believe about the prophetic books are being developed. (Just like this answer)
These 70 years/weeks started with Jeremiah.
Dan. 9:2 (NASB)
2 in the first year of his reign, I, Daniel, observed in the books the number of the years [b]which was revealed as the word of the LORD to Jeremiah the prophet[/b] for the completion of the desolations of Jerusalem, namely, [b]seventy years.[/b]
So, Daniel was reading Jeremiah's book and then he repented on behalf of Israel. (Dan. 9:3-19) Then Gabriel helps with the answer/understanding of the '70 years/weeks'. (Dan.9:20-27) *I say '70 years/weeks' because Jeremiah/Daniel/Zechriah say 'years' but then Gabriel says 'weeks'*
So, the root of where these '70 years/weeks' was Jeremiah 24:11,29:10. Then Daniel and Zechariah speak of it as well. (Dan. 9:2,9:24; Zech. 1:12,7:5) Surprisingly, it's also written in 2 Chron. 36:21-22.
Now, to answer your other question. Was the 70 years fulfilled in the Book of Nehemiah?
I'm not sure, but [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prophecy_of_Seventy_Weeks#The_Scriptural_.22Artaxerxes.22]This link believes so[/url]
Hmm, maybe. Here is a quote from that link.
From the destruction of Jerusalem in the 19th year of Nebuchadnezzar until the Temple was fully rebuilt in the sixth year of Darius I(Hystaspes), producing a time frame of 586-516 BC or 70 years. (Jer. 52;12-14; Ezra 6:15)
Sounds accurate to me. But where does the 'Messiah' part come in? And the 'cutting off' part? And the division of the years, 7, 62 then one final year. What does history say about those?
These are questions, I'm now asking if this is true. Which, to me, seems to be. 8-)
| 2007/4/2 18:14||Profile|
Hi again Lovegrace :-)
"Was the 70 years fulfilled in the Book of Nehemiah?"
Well, actually I was suggesting that this passage in Nehemiah gives us the [b]staring[/b] point for these weeks.
Remember, the angel told Daniel that...
"...[u][b]from[/b] the going forth[/u] of the [b]commandment[/b] [u]to restore and to [b]build[/b] Jerusalem[/u] unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times."
So I'm seeing a distinction here, between what Jeremiah foretold, the 70 years captivity, which had been or was now ending, and this which the angel was revealing to Daniel, these 70 weeks. And I see these elements, the commandment or decree to rebulid the city and so forth in the passage in Nehemiah. Something else to consider here, that a week is a unit of 7 and these weeks then could at least be considered as 70 units of 7, whether you take them to be years or not. This is how it is understood then to be 490 years.
Hope this is more clear as to what I was thinking of in making refrence to the passage in Nehemiah. Hope i'm not making this more confusing. Let me know :-)
Christopher Joel Dandrow
| 2007/4/2 18:47||Profile|
Love Grace your on the right track, needs some tweaking tho.
The 70 years that Jeremiah prophesied concerns Israel being in captivity in Babylon.
Daniel was reading Jeremiahs prophesy and he understood by reading the books that the captivity was coming to a close, that is the 70 years was just about over.
While Daniel was seeking God in prayer concerning these thing, God sent an Angel to give Daniel another prophecy concerning the Messiah and the final scattering of the children of Israel, instead of 70 years, 70 weeks were determined.
Where we get the 7 year concept in calculating the 70 weeks is found in Genesis 29:27-28.
70 weeks times 7 years is 490 years.
In Daniel 9:25, "Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto Jesus Christ the Prince shall be 7 weeks and 60 and 2 weeks."
7+60+2=69 weeks. One week remains which is the week that Christ comes to confirm the covenant with many for one week in verse 27.
I want you to notice verse 25 concerning the date that sets this prophecy in motion. "from the going forth of the commandment to restore Jerusalem".
Consider the books of Ezra and Nehemiah (Which by the way are not in their proper order, they should be after Daniel) Isaiah speaks of this rebuilding and 2 Chronicles Chapter 36 deals with the captivity to babylon the destruction of the temple and the wall.
I want you to calculate the date when Cyrus gave the command to rebuild Jerusalem. When you have found that date, that sets the 70 weeks of Daniel into motion.
And where the Tribbers get their fantasy scriptures from, LORD only knows. (and to think I believed that at one time)
The above is just a taste of this subject, it's vast and the scriptures back this up 100%.
| 2007/4/2 21:53|
How can you say that Nehemiah is the 'starting point', when it clearly shows in Zech. that the 70 years are occuring.
Then Compliments, you state that 70 years are 70 weeks. I disagree because in Zech. it states that it is 70 years. Which Zech. was written AFTER Daniel.
Gen.29 isn't a valid defense for '70 times 7', in maintaining the balance of scripture. Something you learn about hermeneutics is that 'scripture cannot say what it doesn't say'. Gen. 29 [b]doesn't[/b] say that one year means seven. But instead Jacob wanted to serve one year for Leah and seven for Rachel because he loved Rachel more (vs.30).
The scripture in Gen.29 doesn't say, "One year means seven." It shows that Jacob served 8 years for two women. Let's not go outside of what the scripture says.
Nonetheless, both of you brought up a good point about the 70 years being the captivity of babylon.
Did the temple that Nehemiah restored stop their captivity, if so then that points to the fulfillment is within scripture?
| 2007/4/2 22:44||Profile|
Daniel's Prayer for His People
1In the first year of Darius the son of Ahasuerus, by descent a Mede, who was made king over the realm of the Chaldeans-- 2in the first year of his reign, I, Daniel, perceived in the books the number of years that, according to the word of the LORD to Jeremiah the prophet, must pass before the end of the desolations of Jerusalem, namely, seventy years.
Lovegrace, Daniel read in Jeremiah the following:
"This whole land shall become a ruin and a waste, and these nations shall serve the king of Babylon seventy years. Then after seventy years are completed, I will punish the king of Babylon and that nation, the land of the Chaldeans, for their iniquity, declares the LORD, making the land an everlasting waste. I will bring upon that land all the words that I have uttered against it, everything written in this book, which Jeremiah prophesied against all the nations."
Daniel seeing that the seventy years of Captivity was to end soon confessed to the Lord the sin of Israel. The Lord sent His angel Gabriel to tell Daniel about the future and the coming of the Messiah. Daniel is told about 70 periods of seven years in the future not about the 70 years of captivity.
You are confusing the 70 years of Jewish captivity with the 70 sevens from the decree to rebuild Jerusalem.
| 2007/4/3 10:00||Profile|
I've posted already a majority of what you said.
But, '70 sevens' doesn't line up with scripture, as far as I've seen.
Also, even IF, '70 sevens' were true it doesn't like up with the time frame. (For example, it would off about 100 years.)
From the prophesy given in Jeremiah it would take 586 years, not 483.(Which is what some say.) There are 103 years UNACCOUNTED for, if '70 sevens' are true.
But yet, 70 literal years after Jeremiah spoke, Nehemiah rebuilt the temple. If that's not a fulfillment, then I think something is wrong.
I don't see how Daniel and Jeremiah are saying two different things, which seems to be what your saying JaySaved. I believe these 70 years are already fulfilled with the rebuilding of the temple in the book of Nehemiah.
To say that the '70 years' didn't start until Nehemiah is totally forgetting the scripture in Zech., where it shows that the '70 years' are occurring.
When a prophetic word is spoken, it gets fulfilled. It's a heavenly knowledge of the future. We don't have to twist anything to make it 'seem' true like those weird secular people. Jeremiah prophesied that it would be 70 years and in 70 literal years the temple was rebuilt.
If you can show me and solid proof that this is incorrect, by all means, I'll submit.
But when in 586 B.C. Jeremiah prophesies that the babylonan captivity will last 70 years and Daniel say that it also marks the rebuilding of the temple then in 516 B.C. (70 years later) The temple IS rebuild and people are returning to their home land, Israel.
I don't see how that isn't the fulfillment.
| 2007/4/3 10:59||Profile|
| Re: End of 69th week|
The Church is the Parenthesis between the 69th week (Apr 5 32AD and the start of the Tribulation or more accurately the 70th week)
We therefore cannot be part of this when the Church is full we are out of here.
I believe this is the "Parenthesis" you are talking about.
[b]Romans 11:25[/b] [color=990000]For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, [b]until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in.[/b]
[b]26[/b] And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Zion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
[b]27[/b] For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
[b]28[/b] As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes. 29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.[/color]
| 2007/4/3 11:45||Profile|