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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Willful Sin/Unwillful Sin

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HopeinChrist
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Joined: 2005/8/8
Posts: 256


 Willful Sin/Unwillful Sin

Hebrews 10:26 For if we sin willfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

Since the writer of Hebrews is distinguishing willful sin, I would have to conclude there is sin that is not willful. What sin is not willful?

 2007/4/1 14:51Profile









 Re: Willful Sin/Unwillful Sin

Quote:

HopeinChrist wrote:
Hebrews 10:26 For if we sin willfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

Since the writer of Hebrews is distinguishing willful sin, I would have to conclude there is sin that is not willful. What sin is not willful?


Mmmm, interesting question.

I also find it interesting that there was an OT offering that was for a sin or a fault you [i]didn't know[/i] you had committed. Maybe that's what was meant?

Or maybe it's to do with the fact that we often don't know our own heart, and really think, for example, that our motives for saying or doing something are of the highest...until the Holy Spirit convicts us about it!

Maybe we have sinned "wilfully" but managed to persuade ourselves that it isn't really sin, or that we have a genuine excuse, or can put the blame on someone else.

An example would be David with Bathsheba. He must have known, and somehow justified his actions; yet he couldn't have fully realised, the horror of what he'd done until Nathan faced him with it by the Word of the Lord. After that there was no more excuse - it was a case of "repent or perish".

Thank God he repented, and the Lord forgave him! But no wonder he was terrified when he finally had to acknowledge what he'd done.

A challenging thought indeed!

In Him

Jeannette

 2007/4/1 17:12









 Re: Willful Sin/Unwillful Sin

We are all doomed, because I don't know a Christian who hasn't willfully sinned. But thank God this is not what this is talking about.

Willfully sinning is someone who has received all that pretaineth to Hebrews 6:1-5, received Christs' atonement etc. etc..

Hebrews 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

They are falling away from the faith that once delivered them from sin and going back under their own works thus rejecting Christs finished work.

This is what it means to willfully sin.

I've given you a thought, now you do the studying.

God Bless

 2007/4/1 19:02
ginnyrose
Member



Joined: 2004/7/7
Posts: 7449
Mississippi

 Re: Willful Sin/Unwillful Sin

You have asked a question I have asked different people and nobody gives me a satiafactory answer! Maybe you will get one here????

Let me tell you a true story: when I worked at CPC (Crises Pregancy Center) there were times when I would get calls from women who wanted to get an abortion and could I tell them where one can be had? I would never share that info with a caller but instead would work to convince them this is something they should not do. I would ask them "Do you know what an abortion is?" "Yes, it is killing a baby!" "What do you think God says about that?" I would ask. "Oh, I know he does not want me to do it, that it is sin, but I plan to go ahead and have then afterwards will ask him to forgive me!"

Now, do you reckon God can forgive this presumptuous sin?

Let me tell you something else, I have never met anyone who took this position and came back later and had experienced forgiveness for this sin. OR even was repentent of it.

Now, what do you think? What does the Bible say in a matter like this? Does this verse apply here?

I await your answer...

ginnyrose


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Sandra Miller

 2007/4/1 20:09Profile
PreachParsly
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Joined: 2005/1/14
Posts: 2164
Arkansas

 Re:

The word "sin" in that verse is in the present tense. So it means a continual sinning. Young's translates it like this.

Heb 10:26 For we--wilfully sinning after the receiving the full knowledge of the truth--no more for sins doth there remain a sacrifice,

Here is a post I put on these verses on another message board.
---------------


Let's look at those verses in Hebrews 10 for a moment. I don't think they are what some people make them out to be. One stumble doesn't mean you are eternally damned. I'll give my short commentary on these verses and put them out for "destructive testing."

[color=0000CC]Heb 10:26 For if we sin willfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
Heb 10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
Heb 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? [/color]



Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:

In this verse what is he referencing to?

[color=0000CC]Deu 17:2 If there be found among you, within any of thy gates which the LORD thy God giveth thee, man or woman, that hath wrought wickedness in the sight of the LORD thy God, in transgressing his covenant,[/color]
[color=993300]Deu 17:3 And hath gone and served other gods, and worshiped them, either the sun, or moon, or any of the host of heaven, which I have not commanded; [/color]
[color=0000CC]Deu 17:4 And it be told thee, and thou hast heard of it, and inquired diligently, and, behold, it be true, and the thing certain, that such abomination is wrought in Israel:
Deu 17:5 Then shalt thou bring forth that man or that woman, which have committed that wicked thing, unto thy gates, even that man or that woman, and shalt stone them with stones, till they die.
Deu 17:6 At the mouth of two witnesses, or three witnesses, shall he that is worthy of death be put to death; but at the mouth of one witness he shall not be put to death.
Deu 17:7 The hands of the witnesses shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterward the hands of all the people. So thou shalt put the evil away from among you. [/color]


See it wasn't just a person that merely "slipped up" or stumbled. This person deliberately went out with the intention of going directly against God to serve other gods. No mistake for sure!

I don't believe this applies to the person that is struggling against sin and falls. Nor do I believe it applies to the one who backslides. This is a person that with full knowledge of what they are doing wants to break his covenant with God (circumcision of the heart being the seal) to serve "other gods."

My view on "losing your salvation" is summed up in this. "It's surely possible, but not probable." In other words, I think it can be done but it doesn't happen near as much as some people say it does.


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Josh Parsley

 2007/4/1 20:49Profile
5nva
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Joined: 2003/8/15
Posts: 179


 Re:

I believe Numbers 15:22-31 gives us some good understanding of willful and unwillful or intentional or unintentional sin. Some other scriptures I would suggest reading that God may speak to you about this would be Deuteronomy 1:43 and 2 Peter 2:10.

David cried out to God in Psalm 19:13, keep back thy servant from presumptuous sins; let them not have dominion over me; then I shall be upright and I shall be innocent from the great transgression.

I wonder of the great transgression he speaks about is blasphemy. That's just a thought that came to me at one time when I was study these things.

I hope you read the scriptures I mentioned and that the Lord speaks to you through them and you are blessed.

Mike


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Mike

 2007/4/1 21:13Profile
HopeinChrist
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Joined: 2005/8/8
Posts: 256


 Re: Willful Sin/Unwillful Sin

Thanks for all of the replies. I looked up all the scripture references posted in response and printed them out so I could get one big picture. (I'm pasting them below for anyone else who wants to read them through.)

It now seems to me that presumptuous sin = deliberately and intentionally turning away from serving God and choosing to serve another. Am I on the right track? I hadn't really tied this question into the OSAS debate but following PreachParsley's comment, I can see how it ties in. I do not believe God will stop anyone from turning away from Him anymore than I believe He will force someone to come to Him to begin with. Thanks again for the responses, I will continue to chew on this.
Hope

Hebrews 6:1-6,
Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. And this will we do, if God permit.For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

Heb 10:26 For we--wilfully sinning after the receiving the full knowledge of the truth--no more for sins doth there remain a sacrifice,


Heb 10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
Heb 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:

Deu 17:2 If there be found among you, within any of thy gates which the LORD thy God giveth thee, man or woman, that hath wrought wickedness in the sight of the LORD thy God, in transgressing his covenant,
Deu 17:3 And hath gone and served other gods, and worshiped them, either the sun, or moon, or any of the host of heaven, which I have not commanded;
Deu 17:4 And it be told thee, and thou hast heard of it, and inquired diligently, and, behold, it be true, and the thing certain, that such abomination is wrought in Israel:
Deu 17:5 Then shalt thou bring forth that man or that woman, which have committed that wicked thing, unto thy gates, even that man or that woman, and shalt stone them with stones, till they die.
Deu 17:6 At the mouth of two witnesses, or three witnesses, shall he that is worthy of death be put to death; but at the mouth of one witness he shall not be put to death.
Deu 17:7 The hands of the witnesses shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterward the hands of all the people. So thou shalt put the evil away from among you.

Numbers 15:22-31 And if ye have erred, and not observed all these commandments, which the LORD hath spoken unto Moses, [Even] all that the LORD hath commanded you by the hand of Moses, from the day that the LORD commanded [Moses], and henceforward among your generations; Then it shall be, if [ought] be committed by ignorance without the knowledge of the congregation, that all the congregation shall offer one young bullock for a burnt offering, for a sweet savour unto the LORD, with his meat offering, and his drink offering, according to the manner, and one kid of the goats for a sin offering. And the priest shall make an atonement for all the congregation of the children of Israel, and it shall be forgiven them; for it [is] ignorance: and they shall bring their offering, a sacrifice made by fire unto the LORD, and their sin offering before the LORD, for their ignorance: And it shall be forgiven all the congregation of the children of Israel, and the stranger that sojourneth among them; seeing all the people [were] in ignorance. And if any soul sin through ignorance, then he shall bring a she goat of the first year for a sin offering. And the priest shall make an atonement for the soul that sinneth ignorantly, when he sinneth by ignorance before the LORD, to make an atonement for him; and it shall be forgiven him. Ye shall have one law for him that sinneth through ignorance, [both for] him that is born among the children of Israel, and for the stranger that sojourneth among them. But the soul that doeth [ought] presumptuously, [whether he be] born in the land, or a stranger, the same reproacheth the LORD; and that soul shall be cut off from among his people. Because he hath despised the word of the LORD, and hath broken his commandment, that soul shall utterly be cut off; his iniquity [shall be] upon him.

Deu 1:43 So I spake unto you; and ye would not hear, but rebelled against the commandment of the LORD, and went presumptuously up into the hill.

2Pe 2:10 But chiefly them that walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness, and despise government. Presumptuous [are they], selfwilled, they are not afraid to speak evil of dignities.

Psalm 19:13 Keep back thy servant also from presumptuous [sins]; let them not have dominion over me: then shall I be upright, and I shall be innocent from the great transgression.

Quote:

HopeinChrist wrote:
Hebrews 10:26 For if we sin willfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

Since the writer of Hebrews is distinguishing willful sin, I would have to conclude there is sin that is not willful. What sin is not willful?

 2007/4/3 20:30Profile
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 Re:


[b]Secret Sins by C.H. Spurgeon[/b]
http://www.ksb.org.za/articles/secret_sins.htm

[b]Presumptious Sins by C.H. Spurgeon[/b]
http://www.ksb.org.za/articles/presumptious_sins.htm


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SI Moderator - Greg Gordon

 2007/4/3 20:36Profile
UniqueWebRev
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Joined: 2007/2/9
Posts: 640
Southern California

 Re: Willful Sin/Unwillful Sin

From what I have read of the above posts, no one is coming out and saying that if we sin, willfully or in ignorance, we are not damned, because of Christ within us.

The only sins that cannot be forgiven are perfection in keeping the commandments, which no one can do but God, or [b]LACK OF FAITH IN CHRIST JESUS,[/b] specified in [b][color=993300]Revelations 14:12. Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
13. And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.[/color][/b]

If anyone disagrees, I need to know it, for no human can be sinless - not one! And turning to idols is not the only thing that can damn you. Any sin can, if we are without Christ! This is why only a remnant of the Jews survive into the millenium, to redeem God's promise to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, not all of them. For they cannot keep the commandments either, even though they may worship Jehovah.

Else, why do we need Christ?

Blessings,

Forrest


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Forrest Anderson

 2007/4/4 4:53Profile









 Re:

Quote:

UniqueWebRev wrote:
From what I have read of the above posts, no one is coming out and saying that if we sin, willfully or in ignorance, we are not damned, because of Christ within us.

The only sins that cannot be forgiven are perfection in keeping the commandments, which no one can do but God, or [b]LACK OF FAITH IN CHRIST JESUS,[/b] specified in [b][color=993300]Revelations 14:12. Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
13. And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.[/color][/b]

If anyone disagrees, I need to know it, for no human can be sinless - not one! And turning to idols is not the only thing that can damn you. Any sin can, if we are without Christ! This is why only a remnant of the Jews survive into the millenium, to redeem God's promise to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, not all of them. For they cannot keep the commandments either, even though they may worship Jehovah.

Else, why do we need Christ?

Blessings,

Forrest


Well said! That's the truth of the matter in a nutshell.

The worst sin, as said elsewhere, is "going about to establish our own righteousness".

What could be more presumptuous, and insulting to God, than rejecting HIS righteousness in favour of our own efforts.

The parable of the man without a wedding garment comes to mind, (Mtt 22:11-13). Traditionally the host prepared festive garments for the guests at a wedding. It was an unbelievable insult to insist on wearing one's own clothes instead.

Jeannette

 2007/4/4 5:11





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