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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Flawed Interpretation

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crsschk
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 It is written

Quote:
because...[i]it is written[/i].



Amen. Had used as the heading "Because I said so" earlier as he did and was breaking down the dichotomy that rejects ultimate authority as part and partial of this whole 'Diaprax'.

Bringing this back to the begining, the concern still is that of our own kind ... to appeal to us all whatever the preconceived notions that there is really no such thing as many intrepetations or that that is acceptable. It does break down ino that seemingly cliche' like mantra of "One of us is wrong ..."

"Let God be true and every man a liar" carries much more ... demand than we may well admit to.


_________________
Mike Balog

 2007/4/1 1:20Profile
rookie
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Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4792


 Re:

Brother Mike wrote:

Quote:
This idea that there is everybody's interpretation as a settled matter is just wrong and if we give up on this line or approach it as somehow forever elusive that we can "agree to disagree" ... To be honest heard that elsewhere, that this was a faulty concept and at first it struck me sideways, as a matter of fact and maybe it planted the first seeds of this whole thing.



This is the work of the Spirit. To "agree to disagree" means that we have decided not to grow in Christ.

God Bless
Jeff


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Jeff Marshalek

 2007/4/1 9:01Profile
crsschk
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Giving up

Quote:
This is the work of the Spirit. To "agree to disagree" means that we have decided not to grow in Christ.



Well said.


_________________
Mike Balog

 2007/4/1 10:02Profile
Lor_E
Member



Joined: 2006/12/23
Posts: 248
Montana USA

 Re: Giving up

John 17:14-18
I have given them Thy word; and the world hath hated them
because they are not of the world,
even as I am not of the world.
I pray not that Thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that Thou shouldest keep them from the evil.
They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
Sanctify them through Thy truth; Thy word is truth.
As Thou has sent me into the world, even so
have I also sent them into the world.”

The commission of the saints is not that of their own choices, but rather that which was given by way of Christ.
Christ, the focus of God the Father,
the focus of ALL Scripture,
the Beginning and the End,
The Lamb slain from the beginning of the world.
How is it that as mere humanity could be any more than we sanctify God in our hearts
by the indwelling Christ
and the gift He has given us by His Holy Spirit?

Christ spoke in this way:
Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice….. And Pilate saith unto him, What is truth?

Even now many proclaiming themselves to be Christians are asking that same question. “What is truth?” and Christ indeed says the same thing:
“Every one that HEARETH!”
“to him that has ears to hear”
“He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches..”
He that hath My commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: AND HE THAT LOVETH Me shall be loved of My Father, and I will love him, and will manifest Myself to him.”

Truth is not merely an understanding,
It is a person,
The person of Jesus Christ.

And how many times has one person met another and noticed different things about that person? The way they move, the way they speak, their kindness, their severity; it is not that one understanding is above another, perhaps it is that since all GIFTS are not the same, the way the express what they find attributable about that person is just not the same as the other person expresses.

Not that we as mere humanity can fully EVER express, or delineate, or comprehend the fullness of God, the fullness of the God head, the fullness of all that is held within Christ. No, all we can do is say:

God, YOU alone are true! You alone are Sovereign, You alone are Wise! All that I have been given comes from Your hand alone! In my own mind are human understandings which may seem so good, so true; yet I know that when held against the Light of Your presence are mere drawings in the sand of a child; only a reflection of this or that truth.

No, Lord, may I only speak as one who was given a gift of light, a nugget of understanding, a small piece in the overall stature of the Man Christ. May my heart EVER be ready to yield, for in this alone is the wisdom of God made manifest. And though I yield, I know that which you have given, that which is UNMOVABLE, the Spirit of God who stands as an stalwart refuge of unquestionable truth and understanding! And this great Mystery has been planted within this clay vessel, the hope of Glory! That NOT I, BUT CHRIST should be the banner over my heart!

May YOU be seen, God of Light, and may my face fade into an obscurity blending into the fabric that tears not, that clothes the Church of Jesus Christ with love, humility, and the very power of God! That not mine, but THINE! Not My will, but Thine, not too our glory, oh Lord, but to THEE alone be all praise, honor, and glory!

May we all pray together, that God would help us to have proper understanding, not according to men, but according to the Holy Spirit, who is One with God the Father and God the Son, who dwells and rules within the true body of Christ!

Amen to your words brothers and sisters!


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Lori Salyer

 2007/4/1 14:52Profile
John173
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Joined: 2007/1/30
Posts: 289
Omaha

 Re:

I can't help getting just a little teary eyed reading threads like this. Tears born out of restored hope that not all is lost. Tears born from the recognition that the Spirit of God is moving in the hearts of His children, spurring us on to lay hold of HIM.

Thank you brother Mike, for as much as your post was a setting forth of a warning and a grievance, and a bit rambling at that, yet it warmed my heart greatly. It also continues to add to the burden for prayer, a burden I am inexpresably thankful for, without which I would be as lukewarm tapwater.

Lor_E,
I will not overly praise [i]you[/i] for what you wrote. I thought I was reading Spurgeon or Tozer or some other saint who has gone on to glory. These brothers spoke as with a holy unction, the wisdom of which has only One source.

Giving thanks to God for His blessed remnant,

Doug


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Doug Fussell

 2007/4/2 0:41Profile
UniqueWebRev
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Joined: 2007/2/9
Posts: 640
Southern California

 Re: Giving up

Quote:

crsschk wrote:
Quote:
This is the work of the Spirit. To "agree to disagree" means that we have decided not to grow in Christ.



Well said.



How then does one stay out of strife with brother or sister who holds what you believe are false doctrines? If a Presbyterian and a Roman Catholic, after consulting the Holy Spirit, cannot agree, yet the matter does not affect the basic nature of Salvation through Christ, are we to disassociate? Coming from a background of female Catholics, and male Presbyterians(Parents and both sets of Grandparents), the issue is not lightly taken to agree to disagree.

What say you?

Forrest


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Forrest Anderson

 2007/4/2 6:54Profile
crsschk
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re: Not settling until it's settled

Quote:
How then does one stay out of strife with brother or sister who holds what you believe are false doctrines? If a Presbyterian and a Roman Catholic, after consulting the Holy Spirit, cannot agree, yet the matter does not affect the basic nature of Salvation through Christ, are we to disassociate? Coming from a background of female Catholics, and male Presbyterians(Parents and both sets of Grandparents), the issue is not lightly taken to agree to disagree.

What say you?



Not entirely alone there, my own being both Catholics and the comparisons would end there, can't imagine what your situation might have been like... Surely this is a volatile can of worms to pry the lid off of.

Wish I could recall who it was now, seems it was at the time when the disputing were fresh in the Armenian\Calvin ... uprising I guess I could call it. But it was some saint that disagreed with one side or the other but his deeper grievance was not with those he disagreed with but the ones who he did agree with. It was their method of approach, their unruly anger, how they went about it that ended up making him an outcast and branded a heretic by his own 'agree-r's'. It was a poignant point that left a deep impression, it's buried in this site somewhere.

The problem is manifold I full well recognize. The normal knee jerk reactions would scream [i]compromise[/i]! I can even hear it redounding in my own ears if I let it ... But that is not the level or the directional aim. "Ecumenicism" I can also hear outside ponding on the door as it were and that too is not anywhere near the expression as best I can tell it is asking for compromise and that which cannot be compromised.

The problem with the statement is that it is false. We do not agree at all to disagree, we disagree period. It is a false dichotomy. Somebody is wrong, period. What really takes place is a giving up. We cease and go our separate ways. And ultimately we fail [i]if[/i] one side or the other gives up... I can tell already that I am failing mightily to give off the expression I would ... I am not even sure that the intent was to rally a calling to the ideal, though it has always been the great dilemma to wrestle with this text;

Luk 9:46 Then there arose a reasoning among them, which of them should be greatest.
Luk 9:47 And Jesus, perceiving the thought of their heart, took a child, and set him by him,
Luk 9:48 And said unto them, Whosoever shall receive this child in my name receiveth me: and whosoever shall receive me receiveth him that sent me: for he that is least among you all, the same shall be great.
Luk 9:49 And John answered and said, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name; [b]and we forbad him, because he followeth not with us[/b].

Luk 9:50 And Jesus said unto him, [b][i]Forbid him not[/i][/b]: for he that is not against us is for us.

That coupled with the Lords own words;

Joh 17:21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

I do not have the answer. I do know there is one interpretation, not many and it is the one intended even if it might have a multiple of proscriptions ... The error will always be on our end, the strife and contention, the misapplication, the wrong doctrines derived and certainly there will always be those things emphatically stated within the scriptures themselves ... Maybe I am asking for the impossible, that we lay down everything to pure, whole biblical truth ... All of it.

Including 'our' "interpretations".

Outlandish I know ...


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Mike Balog

 2007/4/2 10:35Profile
lovegrace
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Joined: 2006/8/12
Posts: 313


 Re:

Just like in Acts with Paul and Mark. Agree to disagree but doesn't mean you have to walk the same path. ;-)

 2007/4/2 11:28Profile
Lor_E
Member



Joined: 2006/12/23
Posts: 248
Montana USA

 Re: Kingdom of God or of men?

“He that troubleth his own house shall inherit the wind: and the fool shall be servant to the wise of heart. The fruit of the righteous is a tree of life; and he that winneth souls is wise.” Prov 11:29-30

“Every prudent man dealeth with knowledge; but a fool layeth open his folly. A wicked messenger falleth into mischief: but a faithful ambassador is health. Poverty and shame shall be to him the refuseth instruction: but he that regarded reproof shall be honored.” Prov 13:16-18

“Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labor. For we are laborers together with God: ye are God’s husbandry, ye are God’s building…………….But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.” 1 Cor. 3:8-10

“And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God. For I determined not to know anything among you, save Jesus Christ, and Him crucified. And I was with you in weakness, and in fear, and in much trembling. And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man’s wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:
THAT YOUR FAITH SHOULD NOT STAND IN THE WISDOM OF MEN, BUT IN THE POWER OF GOD.” 1Cor 2:1-5

Foolish men, wicked men, deceptive men, men with divided hearts and minds: men whose kingdoms had self propagating directions, means, and fruit: all these making an impression upon the “eons” influenced other humans by means of “captivating” speech, intrigue, and intellectual prowess. (And do to this day, what do you suppose “marketing” is based on?) The kingdom of God has never been built with men’s hands. God has called such activity an abomination and has not ever changed His mind.

NO! men who are submitted to the authority of the Holy Spirit, HOLY MEN of old, who were moved by the HOLY SPIRIT, these have shaped the hearts of the BODY of Christ! Unfortunately, there are many who believe that since they hang ‘round the tree they are therefore planted into it! Some RELIGIONS teach that you must be hanging on the tree or you are not IN the tree, that only by participating in what THEY DO are you then thus saved.

Jesus said, “Every branch IN ME!” Not mere sitting in the church, not simply listening to a “service”, not just partaking in bread, not praying with many words that mean nothing, not pronouncing a prayer or raising a hand or moving forward to the front of the church building!

NO! Rather that which God has called to Himself,
that which has been drawn by the POWER of the Holy Spirit;
that which has responded to the inner miserable understanding of their own FAILURE to ever reach unto anything that is somewhat acceptable to God under their own power! ALL MY WORKS ARE AS FILTHY RAGS!
Only those who will FALL upon the rock and be broken…
Only those who will cry out, “What must we do to be saved”…..
Only those that render their own hearts inadequate and reach with EMPTY hands to an ALREADY ACCOMPLISHED FACT; that Jesus Christ came to this earth to save SINNERS, of which I am chief!!

NO UNDERSTANDING, NO INTERPERTATION, NO RELIGIOUS ACTS, NO FLAGELLATING, NO TEARS ALONE, NO WORDS ALONE, ONLY THIS ONE THING! That lest I learn what the Son of God would have me to do I AM UNDONE!!

HERE I STAND, this human crate with no chance in this life, no hope, no life, my own works have brought me to this pit. Yet, somewhere in the depths of my dark heart there is a pierced hand reaching out to ME, One that beckons to me: “COME UNTO ME ALL YE THAT LABOR AND ARE HEAVY LADEN AND I WILL GIVE YOU REST!”

Error! humanity was born into it! They lavish themselves in it, consume it as a tasty trifle, ignore it when it sits besides them and whispers in their ear- tickling their human need and desire. We all walk along paths that are spoiled and muddied by the trash of error along the way. No, as Watchman Nee says, you may not be able to be unable to get your feet dirty along the way but that doesn’t mean you should roll along the ground and become covered by it! NO! Instead practice the washing of feet, not mere running water, BUT with LIVING WATER! That which comes from ABOVE! That which bubbles up from the very GIFT of God within your very heart!

How can we deal with such error within such an error ridden world and time? With family and friends and churches walking in so much error they are in danger of hell fire?

No, there is NO “pat answer”, only ONE answer; “God, for the sake of heaven, for the sake of the gospel, for the sake of My Savior Jesus Christ what would ye have me to do?” How much should I pray for those held in the sway of error? How much should I pray for the masses whose hearts are hardened by sin, by deceit, by selfishness? How much should I seek God’s face for the brother or sister who believe that being RIGHT is more important than being Godly?

Is my speech going to change their hearts? Is my understanding going to sway theirs? Do I have the discernment, wisdom and grace that’s needed for this present moment? Do I have the source of LIFE flowing in my veins that will be a representative of the very KINGDOM of God to all I come into contact with?

“Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved,
what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God……
nevertheless we, according to HIS promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of Him in PEACE, without spot,, and blameless.” 2Peter 3:11-14


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Lori Salyer

 2007/4/2 16:03Profile
rookie
Member



Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4792


 Re:

Brother Forrest wrote:

Quote:
If a Presbyterian and a Roman Catholic, after consulting the Holy Spirit, cannot agree,



Did both consult the Holy Spirit through searching the word of God found in the Holy Scriptures...

Psalm 119:

103 How sweet are Your words to my taste,
Sweeter than honey to my mouth!
104 Through Your precepts I get understanding;
Therefore I hate every false way.
105 Your word is a lamp to my feet
And a light to my path.

Only the word of God can bring unity that is found in Christ. The word of God will show us every false way. The word of God is the only means by which we are enabled to see the path that must be taken. In His wisdom, He is able to reconcile our differences.

The only things we must do...be willing to listen to what Scripture says to us.

In Christ
Jeff


_________________
Jeff Marshalek

 2007/4/3 2:31Profile





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