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HomeFree89
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Joined: 2007/1/21
Posts: 797
Indiana

 Re:


"However, I would like to point out, that regardless of the fact that not all speak in tongues, there are only two evidences of being filled with the Holy Spirit found in the scriptures.

One is tongues, the other is prophecy."



Hi Ben,

Were do you get that from the Bible? If you look at my first and second posts you see verses quoted that show more gifts then the two you mentioned.

Jordan


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Jordan

 2007/4/2 15:22Profile
iansmith
Member



Joined: 2006/3/22
Posts: 963
Wheaton, IL

 Re:

Quote:
BenWilliams wrote:

However, I would like to point out, that regardless of the fact that not all speak in tongues, there are only two evidences of being filled with the Holy Spirit found in the scriptures.
One is tongues, the other is prophecy.



You couldn't be more wrong on this Ben. The only evidence that Apostle Paul says is true evidence of the Spirit is LOVE!

1 Cor 13:1-13
Quote:

1 If I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but do not have love, I have become a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. 2 If I have the gift of prophecy, and know all mysteries and all knowledge; and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. 3 And if I give all my possessions to feed the poor, and if I surrender my body to be burned, but do not have love, it profits me nothing.
4 Love is patient, love is kind and is not jealous; love does not brag and is not arrogant, 5 does not act unbecomingly; it does not seek its own, is not provoked, does not take into account a wrong suffered, 6 does not rejoice in unrighteousness, but rejoices with the truth; 7 bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.
8 Love never fails; but if there are gifts of prophecy, they will be done away; if there are tongues, they will cease; if there is knowledge, it will be done away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part; 10 but when the perfect comes, the partial will be done away. 11 When I was a child, I used to speak like a child, think like a child, reason like a child; when I became a man, I did away with childish things. 12 For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face; now I know in part, but then I will know fully just as I also have been fully known. 13 But now faith, hope, love, abide these three; but the greatest of these is love.



Gal 5:22-23
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.


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Ian Smith

 2007/4/2 15:31Profile
BenWilliams
Member



Joined: 2006/12/11
Posts: 351
El Paso, Texas

 Re:

Jordan Wrote:

Quote:
Were do you get that from the Bible? If you look at my first and second posts you see verses quoted that show more gifts then the two you mentioned.



Hey Jordan, I am starting with the book of acts, from the day of pentecost onward. The only evidence found when someone is baptized in the Holy Spirit is that of speaking in tongues, and prophecy.

Now, to clarify so that no one is confused by this, those are the evidence of baptism in the Holy Spirit. The other gifts that people receive from the Spirit, are not the evidence of it.

[b]To prove this point all you need to do is examine every account from acts onward where someone is filled with the Holy Spirit, and look at what the primary evidence of it is.[/b]

All the other giftings are evidence of themselves, for example. If you have the gift of healing, and you pray for someone to be healed, and that person is healed. If someone asks you why the person was healed, do you tell them it was because you are baptized in the Holy Spirit? I think not. It proves only that it is because God healed them, not that you were baptized in the Holy Spirit. But on the other hand, if you speak in tongues, and someone asks you why you speak in tongues, do you tell them it is because God spoke in tongues? I think not, it proves only to be because you were baptized in the Holy Spirit.

Bad example I know, but perhaps it will demonstrate the concept.

Now, back to examining the examples where people were baptized in the Holy Spirit, there are no instances where anyone received any other gifts that were immediately evidenced. Only prophecy, and tongues. Therefore, they are the immediate, exact evidence, and become the standard whereby we compare any subjective situation we find ourselves in.

Now to further clarify, the other gifts, are evidence of the Spirit, but not immediate evidence, and cannot be called a standard by which to judge a matter. Everything must be held up to the example that we have in scripture.

So if someone claims to be baptized in the Holy Spirit, but contains no evidence of either prophecy, or speaking in tongues. I have whereof to doubt them. That does not mean necessarily that they are not filled with the Holy Spirit, but it is how the matter should be judged.


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Benjamin Williams

 2007/4/2 16:27Profile
BenWilliams
Member



Joined: 2006/12/11
Posts: 351
El Paso, Texas

 Re:

iansmith Wrote:

Quote:
You couldn't be more wrong on this Ben. The only evidence that Apostle Paul says is true evidence of the Spirit is LOVE!



iansmith, we are not discussing the fruit of the Spirit, we are discussing the Gift of tongues, and the evidence of the Baptism in the Holy Spirit.

Show me a place in scripture where when someone was baptized in the Holy Spirit, they received the gift of love as evidence.

Also, read acts, and the account of Peter and Cornelius, and show me the part where Peter says that the reason they knew that the gentiles were saved was because of the great gift of love they received like the Apostles on the day of pentecost.

I am sorry for the sarchasm, but it was necessary to prove the point. Peter says that they knew the gentiles were saved [b][u]because they received the Spirit and spoke in tongues even as we did on the day of pentecost.[/u][/b]

I don't disagree, that you will be able to tell who has the Spirit by their love, but that is a fruit, not a gift, and absolutely not an immediate evidence of the baptism of the Holy Spirit, as proved throughout the new testament.


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Benjamin Williams

 2007/4/2 16:37Profile
iansmith
Member



Joined: 2006/3/22
Posts: 963
Wheaton, IL

 Re:

If I was going to plant a church tomorrow and could pick my congregation, I'd pick 12 people who had hearts transformed by Jesus and full of love over 5000 that could speak in tongues and prophesy.


_________________
Ian Smith

 2007/4/2 17:41Profile









 Re:

iansmith said

Quote:
If I was going to plant a church tomorrow and could pick my congregation, I'd pick 12 people who had hearts transformed by Jesus and full of love over 5000 that could speak in tongues and prophesy.



Now THAT's a church I'd attend every day of the week!!! >;')

 2007/4/2 21:29
BenWilliams
Member



Joined: 2006/12/11
Posts: 351
El Paso, Texas

 Re:

iansmith Wrote:

Quote:
If I was going to plant a church tomorrow and could pick my congregation, I'd pick 12 people who had hearts transformed by Jesus and full of love over 5000 that could speak in tongues and prophesy.



No doubt, but we weren't discussing what people we would choose if we were gonna plant a church. Again this is off subject from the whole conversation. We are discussing a specific topic.

[b]Anyone who doesn't want to talk about it, shouldn't be posting in the thread.[/b]


_________________
Benjamin Williams

 2007/4/3 9:58Profile









 Re:

Clearly the answer to Paul's question concerning tongues is "no". Not all speak with tongues.

As to his statement in which he said he wished they "all" spoke with tongues, he was not saying they [i]should[/i], he was simply saying that he wished they could all experience it because to Paul, it was a wonderful gift.

I wish you all could experience coaching football... or shooting a Smith & Wesson 460 Magnum... or camping out in the cool mountain air. Does that mean I'm saying you all [i]should[/i] do those things? No, of course not.

And neither was Paul saying everyone should or needs to speak in tongues. He was simply saying "I wish you could experience what I've expereinced, but there are other things that are more important to your spiritual well being that this."

But we, as flawed humans, always have an agenda... so instead of simply reading what Paul says in black and white... we read more into it and build a whole doctrine around it. What was simply Paul expressing his own desires for his brethren has suddenly become a command from the throne room of God that we all need to speak in tongues to show evidence of being filled with the Spirit.

uhhg!

And the evidence of being filled with the Spirit is [b]not[/b] speaking w/ tongues or prophecying. Ian is correct... it is [b]LOVE[/b]. Why do you think Paul said:

[b]1 Cor 13:1[/b] [i]Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.[/i]

Paul said "hey... you can speak in tongues all day long, but if you dont have love... you're nothing!"

It's interesting that almost all of Paul's directives concerning tongues came in the form of a rebuke. He was not commending the Church in Corinth... he was rebuking them! Yet most today use the letters to the Corinthians to justify the very abuses of tongues that the Church in Corinth was guilty of... and being rebuked for.

Funny how we humans are capable of completely twisting things around to make it say what we want it to say.

Let me also comment on the following quote:

Quote:
Ben wrote: [b]Anyone who doesn't want to talk about it, shouldn't be posting in the thread.[/b]



Ben, did you become a moderator on SI now? That statement of yours is out of line and could be offensive to some... and for no apparent reason. This isnt your website, nor is it mine. If a statement like that needs to be issued, let Greg or Mike do it. I see no reason to chase people away.

Krispy

 2007/4/3 10:15
ontheway
Member



Joined: 2007/3/13
Posts: 7


 Re:

Just some misc. comments/ thoughts on the tongues issue.

My understanding is that the gift of tongues and personal prayer language are two different things. Gift of tongues is a prophetic manifestation of the Holy Spirit and the prayer language is for personal communion with the Lord - praying for us when we know not how we should pray & edifying the inner man.

A couple of questions.
1. If the above is correct then every believer can pray in a prayer language, as all have received the Spirit?

2. If not, what is the spiritual gift that the Lord has given to those who do not have a personal prayer language to edify themselves?

ontheway

 2007/4/3 11:34Profile
Provost
Member



Joined: 2006/12/28
Posts: 117


 Re:

Krispy I believe your thought process on Paul "wishing" they could, would be out of context. "Wishing" (in the context your are putting it) is a thought foreign to Paul writings, unless he is calling the believers to something attainable (i.e.knowledge of Jesus). The words there could be "will" or "desire", but "wish" would not fit into Pauls usual thought process. And also his "rebuke" was to stop the chaos and bring about proper usage (edification of the family and the personal believer; which at face value is clearly brought out in Chapters 12-14), but Paul is not bashing toungues.
Peace out Bro Krisp

 2007/4/3 12:01Profile





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