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Discussion Forum : General Topics : Sermon on Nonresistance

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HomeFree89
Member



Joined: 2007/1/21
Posts: 797
Indiana

 Sermon on Nonresistance

Since the other thread on nonresistance I've been thinking about some of the questions people brought up.

Here is a good sermon on nonresistance:

http://www.charityministries.org/tapeministry/audio/3744.mp3

Jordan


_________________
Jordan

 2007/3/24 18:33Profile
pastorfrin
Member



Joined: 2006/1/19
Posts: 1406


 Re: Sermon on Nonresistance

Jordan,
Very good sermon, thank you for the link.
Such a blessing to hear True Biblical Nonresistance being proclaimed and to young people at that, praise the Lord, His message is being proclaimed. Oh that more would have ears to hear, soon it will be to late.
May our prayer be, help us to hear Dear Lord what the Spirit is saying unto the church.

In His Love

pastorfrin

 2007/3/24 19:52Profile
HomeFree89
Member



Joined: 2007/1/21
Posts: 797
Indiana

 Re:

Hi Pastorfrin,

Can I ask you a question? What are your thoughts on the other aspects of nonresistance such as voting? I haven't been able to come to any really conclusion with voting, I don't think it's wrong to vote, but there are others who would say that that is part of nonresistance.


God bless,
Jordan


_________________
Jordan

 2007/3/24 20:22Profile
jordanamo
Member



Joined: 2006/11/23
Posts: 397


 Re:

Heh, although you didn't ask me the question I will chime in. I wouldn't link nonresistance to not voting. Two different things really. But I would not vote because voting is a symbolic/literal gesture that you are endorsing the candidate thereof.

I have not found one candidate that I could endorse, for no such candidate exists. Politics is Poly-ticks, my friend.

The Puritanical/postmillenial/etc. mentality would be for voting for a person that pretty much fits into their general mould of beliefs (anti-abortion, etc.)-- the premillenial view differs with this and advocates an implied resistance of sorts to participating in electing politicians as this Earth is basically of the Devil (crafted by him and ran by him throughout the nations) and no matter how hard you try it's impossible to set up a Theocratic Kingdom likened to that of the Kingdom of God literally on this Earth, only He will bring that about.

I admit I'm a bit scattered on this whole deal (hence: take what I say with a grain of salt) but these are my general thoughts and wish not to argue with you if you feel you want to vote for a political candidate-- "all the power to you."

Jordan

 2007/3/24 22:23Profile
jordanamo
Member



Joined: 2006/11/23
Posts: 397


 Re:

(Didn't listen to the sermon, have no idea the true context of it. Don't plan to listen to it but I probably have an idea of its general context... 'less anyone else wants to chime on specifics.)

On the other issue as regarding nonresistance in the popular sense of the word, I do believe it is entirely biblical, however it can be misconstrued and be turned into a vile protestation. Such as people that rebelled against slavery (even if it was nonresistance)-- when they should have been submissive. ('Tis unbiblical when you look at what Paul said concerning it... but that isn't to endorse slavery, it's just to say, if you find yourself born into it, or placed forcefully, the Biblical thing to do is "please/obey your masters.") And people that non-violently resisted against authorities in the South during 60's, and even Gandhi really and his whole 'deal'.

Nonresistance can really be unholy and unbiblical. It can be completely rebellious (have personal experience with this) so one must be careful. Only a few instances really cause it such as when your conscience says you must peacefully resist (I mean when it REALLY says so) in a certain political or social situation such as conscription (for me, at least).

So, one must be careful!

Jordan

 2007/3/24 22:38Profile
pastorfrin
Member



Joined: 2006/1/19
Posts: 1406


 Re:voting

Jordan wrote:

Quote:
Can I ask you a question? What are your thoughts on the other aspects of nonresistance such as voting? I haven't been able to come to any really conclusion with voting, I don't think it's wrong to vote, but there are others who would say that that is part of nonresistance.



Hi Jordan,
I have one King and I cast my vote a long time ago for Him, to follow Him.
Luke 9:23
And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me.
Politics are violent and corrupt because they are of this world. Just turn on a news program at any given time and what you hear is not love but hate, one side against the other, no thanks. Those who think our Lord is running a democracy will be disappointed.
Our Lord said His kingdom is not of this world so we are not citizens here, but strangers and pilgrims, our citizenship is in heaven where our Lord Jesus Christ is our representative to the Father and cast our vote for us.
Having said this, let each one do as they have faith For whatsoever is not of faith is sin.

In His Love

pastorfrin

 2007/3/25 13:05Profile
HomeFree89
Member



Joined: 2007/1/21
Posts: 797
Indiana

 Re:

Thanks Jordan and Pastorfrin,

You have both been helpful and I will keep seeking on this matter.

Jordan


_________________
Jordan

 2007/3/25 14:21Profile
roadsign
Member



Joined: 2005/5/2
Posts: 3662


 Re:

Hi, Homefree89,
I am posting an excerpt that I scanned from my Bible interpretation and analysis course textbook - the chapter that deals with what WE bring to the biblical text. This section deals with our own historical-cultural context, and how that can color our Biblical interpretation. I thought you might appreciate these thoughts:
let's take a "cultural" look at Romans 13:1-7 (This section is targeted primarily at American readers. If you are not an American, please be patient with us in this section. Try to determine a similar situation in your culture.) Read this passage carefully:

'Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. 2Consequently, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. 3For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and he will commend you. 4For he is God's servant to do you good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God's servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. 5Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also because of conscience.

With this passage in mind, would it have been wrong for you to participate in the Boston Tea Party of 1773? In protest of a new tax on tea, American "patriots" dumped tons of someone else's tea into the Boston Harbor. Was that a Christian thing to do? Or suppose you were one of the Minutemen along the route between Concord and Boston on April 19, 1775. Should a Christian aim, fire, and kill the soldiers that represent the government? Does this not conflict with Romans 13? Or perhaps the larger question should be asked: Was the American Revolution undertaken in disobedience to Romans 13:1-7? Keep in mind that the Revolution was more about economics than about religious freedom.

Remember too that when Paul wrote Romans, the government in Rome was much more oppressive and tyrannical than the British government under King George III ever was. What do you think?

Perhaps we have angered some of you. Perhaps you are steamed-up about our challenge to the legitimacy of the glorious American Revolution. Please forgive us. We are not really concerned with what you think about the Revolution. What we hope you saw was some inner emotional reaction within yourself to a fairly literal and normal reading of a biblical text. If you reacted strongly to our suggested understanding of Romans 13, you should ask yourself, Why did I react so strongly? We would suggest that we struck a sensitive cultural nerve.

You see, the morality of the American rebellion against Britain is never questioned as we grow up. It is always presented as wonderful and gloriousthe epitome of patriotism (which must be good). It is tightly intertwined in our hearts with the flag, baseball, Mom, and apple pie. Thus it has become sacred. We place the "rightness" of it over any critique or challenge to it that may come from the Bible. Any interpretation of Romans 13 that can possibly be legitimate must comply with respect for the Revolution. Thus we place our culture over the Bible, and we become closed-minded to any understanding of the Bible that conflicts with the status quo of our culture.
Of course the Revolution is more complicated than we have admitted. Our purpose is not so much to criticize it as to use it as an illustration. However, we do want you (American readers) to see that there are American things that exert a powerful subconscious influence on the way we read and interpret the Bible. We need to be aware of these influences and to be conscious of their effect on our study. It is important that we at least be open to the possibility that Romans 13 may be critical of the Revolution. We are looking for what God is saying and not what our culture is saying. We must look to the details of the text and its historical setting to determine the answer, not to our own culture-driven preunderstanding.

If we start our interpretive analysis of Romans 13:1-7 with the preconceived, forgone conclusion that it cannot be critical of the Revolution, we are then placing our culture above the Bible. Jesus, however, calls us to a higher calling! We are citizens of his kingdom, pledged to follow him and his teachings. We should never place our loyalty to our country and culture above our loyalty to God. Regardless of what you think about the Revolution, we hope you grasp the idea that we must be able to put all of our American culture on the table under the scrutiny of Scripture. Never should we allow our culture to dictate the meaning of the Word of God.

This is radical stuff and may be difficult for you to digest all at once. We know that. Mull on it for a while. Talk to Christians from different cultures and get their perspective....

Taken from Grasping Gods Word, A Hands on Approach to Reading, Interpreting, and Applying the Bible, by Duvall and Hays


God bless you as you mull this over ...
Diane


_________________
Diane

 2007/3/25 18:28Profile
ginnyrose
Member



Joined: 2004/7/7
Posts: 6626
Mississippi

 Re:

Diane wrote:

Quote:
With this passage in mind, would it have been wrong for you to participate in the Boston Tea Party of 1773? In protest of a new tax on tea, American "patriots" dumped tons of someone else's tea into the Boston Harbor. Was that a Christian thing to do? Or suppose you were one of the Minutemen along the route between Concord and Boston on April 19, 1775. Should a Christian aim, fire, and kill the soldiers that represent the government? Does this not conflict with Romans 13?



Diane, you make a valid point. The writer is right when he says:
Quote:
You see, the morality of the American rebellion against Britain is never questioned as we grow up.

I remember well how we studied American history and had to memorize all those dates (and I did it long enought to pass the test and then forgot it :-o.)

This idea was a new one until I heard someone in recent years say how the Amish/Mennonite immigrants refused to render aid to the revolutionaries for the reasons quoted above and as a result were considered tories which did not sit well for them.

Since I live now in the USA in 2007, I believe - according to Scripture - it is my obligation to pay my taxes and be a law abiding citizen according to Romans 13. But do I vote? I, too, am asking the same question. We have voted in the past and I am experiencing doubts.

The local situation is that the politicans are so corrupt, you vote for who you think would be honest, but how do I know this is really the case? Now this is the practical issue. What about the spiritual one? Pastorfrin made the point how we are strangers and pilgrims and they have no rights in an alien land (at least in most countries) so how does this look like where the rubber meets the road? So if I do not vote, I will not be called to jury duty...

Yes, I am thinking and wondering how the LORD is going to lead us...the longer it goes I get the feeling my presense at the polling place is history...

ginnyrose


_________________
Sandra Miller

 2007/3/25 18:53Profile
HomeFree89
Member



Joined: 2007/1/21
Posts: 797
Indiana

 Re:

Hi Diane,

That is very interesting stuff. I have struggled with the American Revolution and have written a paper about it examining it in light of Scripture.

Thanks for sharing that!

Jordan


_________________
Jordan

 2007/3/25 19:49Profile





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