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Discussion Forum : General Topics : WAS PARADISE UP OR DOWN?

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psalm1
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Joined: 2007/1/30
Posts: 1230


 Re:

hi CTom,I looked at those scriptures.I guess my question is not whether anything or everything was accomplished on the cross."it is finished" can signify what it is supposed to or we can ascribe anytthing we want to it. Obviously he had more to do after he releasd his spirit.It seems you are taking a position that on the cross satan was defeated through Jesus death and only Jesus death,that nothing more needed to happen.You may be right.I am still looking hard at this.On the hades or hell issue my greek bible translates it gehenna and also tartarus. But I have no problem if you want to call it hades.The main point is paradise had a place next to it with fire and prople burning up in it.Since you assume Jesus did not cross over to hades you cant say for sure he didnt, you can only assume he didnt.That part to me is pointless Because you only assumee he didnt cross over.Again I am still looking at this.At this point What is in question is did Jesus actually do anything to the devil "Physically so to speak", in hades,sheol,gehenna,tartarus,hell?The scriptures you gave "support your position" I am looking for scripture that support or contradict the other position.Your position assumes a lot and I guess the other position does too.Would love to see more scripture.Thanks for your input. I do appreciate your insight.....David

 2007/3/25 16:47Profile
staff
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Joined: 2007/2/8
Posts: 1417


 Re:

hi,
Just a point on 1 peter 3.19

[size=xx-small]By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;[/size]
The spirits at the time of noah mentioned above were not in prison at the time he preached to them but looking back from Peter's time to Noah's time we can say they are in prison now.
The previous verse below mentions "quickened by the spirit" at the end and at the begining of 19 he says "by which"(in reference to the spirit).What he is saying is he preached in the spirit not in person.
1pet 3.18
[size=x-small]For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:[/size]

I'm not categorically saying Christ didnt cross over into the bad side of hell but 1 peter 19 dosent describe christ preaching to spirits in hell.You would have to find scripture elsewhere to support that point of view,
rgds Staff

 2007/3/25 19:20Profile









 Re:

Quote:

psalm1 wrote:
hi CTom,I looked at those scriptures.I guess my question is not whether anything or everything was accomplished on the cross."it is finished" can signify what it is supposed to or we can ascribe anytthing we want to it. Obviously he had more to do after he releasd his spirit.It seems you are taking a position that on the cross satan was defeated through Jesus death and only Jesus death,that nothing more needed to happen.You may be right.I am still looking hard at this.On the hades or hell issue my greek bible translates it gehenna and also tartarus. But I have no problem if you want to call it hades.The main point is paradise had a place next to it with fire and prople burning up in it.Since you assume Jesus did not cross over to hades you cant say for sure he didnt, you can only assume he didnt.That part to me is pointless Because you only assumee he didnt cross over.Again I am still looking at this.At this point What is in question is did Jesus actually do anything to the devil "Physically so to speak", in hades,sheol,gehenna,tartarus,hell?The scriptures you gave "support your position" I am looking for scripture that support or contradict the other position.Your position assumes a lot and I guess the other position does too.Would love to see more scripture.Thanks for your input. I do appreciate your insight.....David


But is there any evidence that either hell or paradise, or "Abraham's bosom", are actual physical, geographical places? The grave (Heb, sheol) is a physical place where the physical body is put after death, but the person is not there, and I can't see the that Paradise was ever connected with the grave!

I always thought of heaven and hell as spiritual places.

Mmmm, or maybe paradise is a physical place, akin to the Garden of Eden???

It seems that theologians have never been too sure or fully agreed about it!
Strongs says:
3857 παράδεισος [paradeisos /par·ad·i·sos/] n m. Of Oriental origin cf 6508; TDNT 5:765; TDNTA 777; GK 4137; Three occurrences; AV translates as “paradise” three times. 1 among the Persians a grand enclosure or preserve, hunting ground, park, shady and well watered, in which wild animals, were kept for the hunt; it was enclosed by walls and furnished with towers for the hunters. 2 a garden, pleasure ground. 2a grove, park. 3 the part of Hades which was thought by the later Jews to be the abode of the souls of pious until the resurrection: but some understand this to be a heavenly paradise. 4 the upper regions of the heavens. According to the early church Fathers, the paradise in which our first parents dwelt before the fall still exists, neither on the earth or in the heavens, but above and beyond the world

Jeannette

 2007/3/27 14:54
iansmith
Member



Joined: 2006/3/22
Posts: 963
Wheaton, IL

 Re:

He bore the punishment for my sin upon himself, in Gethsemane, on the Cross and into death.

The Punishment for sin isn't just physical death, it's eternal separation from God. Well Jesus conquered that death, but he did recieve it's punishment for 3 days.

Now I believe the heart of the earth is just a way of saying he was going to be physically dead (as has already been stated)... I think Zac Poonen may be wrong on this one.

Spiritually he bore our sins before the cross and on the cross, he had been bearing our sins for two days, even if he only spent one more day in punishment that would have been three days. He could have still made a trip on over to Paradise within one day of the cross -I know I'm gonna be called heretical for this.

Thank Jesus for the cross!


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Ian Smith

 2007/3/27 15:07Profile
staff
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Joined: 2007/2/8
Posts: 1417


 Re:

Hi,
Just on the scripture below Jesus was in paradise the very day he died.How long he was there?It dosen't say.
[i][size=x-small]Luk 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.[/size][/i]
rgds staff

 2007/3/27 18:09Profile
psalm1
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Joined: 2007/1/30
Posts: 1230


 Re:

I dont think anyone here is a heretic,Im sorta glad to get challenged1!Ok there was a definate place next to hades or hell. We know this from the story of lazareth and the rich man.The place Lazareth was is also where the patriarchs were.Jesus Told the thief" Today you will be w\ me in paradise." So they went.I m hoping someone could explain the" devil got defeated "part.I do realize THe cross is "key" here but I guess I had it in my head That Jesus crossed over And put his foot on satans neck and took back what victory satan had.I could be and prob. am wrong.Sometimes we need to get challenged to air out false supposition.The scriptures brought out so far are good I just dont know if there is more.What do you think?......David

 2007/3/28 0:55Profile
staff
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Joined: 2007/2/8
Posts: 1417


 Re:

Hi David,
I suppose part of the victory was that he led captivity captive and we should look at why he couldnt do this before his death at the cross,
Rgds staff

 2007/3/28 18:41Profile





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