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psalm1
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Joined: 2007/1/30
Posts: 1230


 WAS PARADISE UP OR DOWN?

hi , my wife was emailed the other day informing her that Jesus didnt descend into hell after his crucifiction.What is your take on this?.....Thanks, David

 2007/3/24 17:11Profile









 Re: WAS PARADISE UP OR DOWN?

Quote:

psalm1 wrote:
hi , my wife was emailed the other day informing her that Jesus didnt descend into hell after his crucifiction.What is your take on this?.....Thanks, David


I think that's in one of the creeds, but there probably isn't any definite Scriptural evidence for it.

The only verse I can think of, that may [i]possibly[/i] be interpreted that way is 1Peter 3:18f [some minor editing, doesn't affect the meaning]
[color=000099]
18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit, 19 by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison, 20 who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah.[/color]

This passage is a bit of a puzzle. It could perhaps mean Jesus went into hell, if that's where the "spirits in prison" were. Personally I've never understood this verse (anyone help??) Anyway its a pretty shaky thing to build a doctrine on.

So probably the one who told your wife this was right.

Jeannette

 2007/3/24 18:51
cthom
Member



Joined: 2007/3/9
Posts: 13


 Re: WAS PARADISE UP OR DOWN?

I read this in Zac Poonen's book A GOOD FOUNDATION Chapter 10. This seems to settle the issue:

"While on the cross, Jesus told the repentant thief that he would be with Him in paradise that very day. Both Jesus and that thief went to paradise as soon as their souls left their bodies. Jesus had said that after His death, He would be in `the heart of the earth' for 3 days and 3 nights (Matt. 12:40). From this we know that paradise, at that time, must have been in the heart of the earth. But when Christ was resurrected "from the lower parts of the earth.... and ascended on high.. He led captive a host of captives" (Eph. 4:8,9). He took paradise and all the souls in it up to the third heaven.
In 2 Corinthians 12, when we compare verses 2 and 4 together, we see that paradise is now located in the third heaven. This is where the disciple of Jesus goes as soon as he dies (Phil. 1:23)."

 2007/3/24 20:05Profile
staff
Member



Joined: 2007/2/8
Posts: 1417


 Re:

Hi,
just like to agree with the analysis below of the thief on the cross and add that when the women entered the tomb and saw Jesus he said touch me not for I have not yet ascended;which means paradice must have been below.The sacrafice could not be touched on the way into the holy of holies.In this case Jesus.
[i][size=xx-small]
"While on the cross, Jesus told the repentant thief that he would be with Him in paradise that very day. Both Jesus and that thief went to paradise as soon as their souls left their bodies. Jesus had said that after His death, He would be in `the heart of the earth' for 3 days and 3 nights (Matt. 12:40). From this we know that paradise, at that time, must have been in the heart of the earth. But when Christ was resurrected "from the lower parts of the earth.... and ascended on high.. He led captive a host of captives" (Eph. 4:8,9). He took paradise and all the souls in it up to the third heaven.
In 2 Corinthians 12, when we compare verses 2 and 4 together, we see that paradise is now located in the third heaven. This is where the disciple of Jesus goes as soon as he dies (Phil. 1:23)."[/size][/i]
Rgds Staff

 2007/3/24 20:15Profile









 Re:

Quote:

staff wrote:
Hi,
just like to agree with the analysis below of the thief on the cross and add that when the women entered the tomb and saw Jesus he said touch me not for I have not yet ascended;which means paradice must have been below.The sacrafice could not be touched on the way into the holy of holies.In this case Jesus.


Interesting point Staff, shall have to rethink a bit on that one! But i still think Zech Poonan is stretching the interpretation a bit!

As I said to cthom on a PM (with a little editing):
Zach Poonan’s reasoning here doesn't make sense to me
Quote:
“Both Jesus and that thief went to paradise as soon as their souls left their bodies. Jesus had said that after His death, He would be in `the heart of the earth' for 3 days and 3 nights (Matt. 12:40). From this we know that paradise, at that time, must have been in the heart of the earth.”


His BODY was in the tomb for 3 days, that is figuratively “in the heart of the earth”. But it doesn’t mean his soul was, or that Paradise was!!!

The context of Mtt 12:40 is the “sign of Jonah” to those who rebelled against His Word. As Jonah was a sign to the Ninevites (he must have been in quite a state when he staggered into Nineveh after being in the fish Which may have scared them into repenting!), so Jesus’ death and resurrection would be a sign to those in Israel who refused to repent.

Anyway, that’s my personal take on it. However Godly a man Zech Poonan may be I think that this time he’s probably talking rubbish!

Blessings

Jeannette

 2007/3/24 21:01
cthom
Member



Joined: 2007/3/9
Posts: 13


 Re: WAS PARADISE UP OR DOWN?

Hi
I don't want to get into an argument here. But just one small point of disagreement with Jeanette. Joseph of Arimathea's tomb was on the SURFACE of the earth, not in the HEART of the earth. Jesus meant EXACTLY what He said: "the heart (centre) of the earth". It was not "figurative", as Jeanette states. Also Jesus Himself was NOT in the tomb for 3 days. Only His body was there. He was ALIVE in paradise in the centre of the earth for those 3 days - just as Jonah was alive in the fish's belly.
So I would not be so quick to categorise what a godly man has said as "talking rubbish" (to quote Jeanette again).
I shall not be continuing this discussion.
God bless you all and may we all meet in paradise one day, when we shall get clear answers.
CThom

 2007/3/24 22:50Profile
SteveHale
Member



Joined: 2007/2/15
Posts: 190
NSW Australia

 Re:

He was assigned a grave with wicked, and with the rich in his death, though he had done no violence, nor was any deceit in his mouth.

Yet it was the Lord's will to crush him and cause him to suffer, and though the Lord makes his life a guilt offering, he will see his offspring and prolong his days, and the will of the Lord will prosper in his hand.

After the suffering of his soul, he will see the light of life and be satisfied, by his knowledge my righteous servant will justify many, and he will bear their iniquities.
Isaiah 53:9-11


_________________
Steve

 2007/3/25 0:43Profile
staff
Member



Joined: 2007/2/8
Posts: 1417


 Re:

Hi Jeannette,
Just one thing to add that to the best of my understanding,paradise was also called Abraham's Bosom and was a compartment within hell.So was hell below?You would have to get into hebrew and greek for that one.Jesus said today you will be with me in paradise;so he definitely went to paradise.What did he do there?Paradise was captive in hell.He led captivity captive.But for the rest of the time?
Rgds Staff

 2007/3/25 7:09Profile
psalm1
Member



Joined: 2007/1/30
Posts: 1230


 Re:

hi cthom,I seem to agree with Zac.I was taught this many many years ago and never ran into any altenative teaching untill recently.Actually thought it was clear doctrine, But its good to get challenged!I still have no reason as of yet to believe any differently due to scriprure.It seems clear at this point that Jesus did descend into hell and it seems clear he stripped the devil and took those patriarchs in the adjacent area [paradise] with him to heaven.I know one creed has this and one doesnt Not that it really matters but I wonder why they would leave it out? Does anyone know?........Thanks, David

 2007/3/25 11:32Profile
cthom
Member



Joined: 2007/3/9
Posts: 13


 Re: WAS PARADISE UP OR DOWN?

Hi David,
I had planned to exit from this discussion, but want to come back to make just one clarification. Jesus finished the work of our redemption on Calvary. He said so on the cross: "It is finished". He defeated Satan on the cross itself (Col.2:15 and Heb.2:14). Jesus never went to Hell at any time. The word HADES (Greek) and SHEOL (Hebrew) have been wrongly translated as "Hell" in the KJV. HADES is "The place of departed spirits" and has two sections - Hell (where the rich man went) and Abraham's bosom (or paradise, where poor Lazarus went). Jesus and the repentant thief went to HADES, but to the PARADISE section of HADES. The proclamation Jesus made to the demons about their final defeat (1 Pet.3:19) was made from the Paradise section of Hades. When Jesus ascended, He took Paradise up to the third heaven.
Finally, the important thing is that we all endure to the end and meet in paradise one day. May it be so for all who are in this discussion.
CThom

 2007/3/25 12:27Profile





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