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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : salvation by our fruits?

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rookie
Member



Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4792


 Re:

Lazarus wrote:
"Are they trusting in their own works? The Lord will say to them "I never KNEW you." That is key to understanding this."

I believe this identifies the result and not the source of these peoples mistake. If one would continue on in this verse we find the reason why the Lord rejects them.

"And then I will declare to them, I never knew you;
[b]depart from Me; you who practice lawlessness."[/b]

Two cannot walk together unless they be agreed. One cannot know the Son unless he follows the commands of His Lord. Remember, Jesus said that He must leave, and that He would send the Counselor. The Counselor would not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears from the Son, He will declare that to the sons of God. Only those who are led by the Spirit are His.

"You say rightly that I am a king. For this cause I was born, and for this cause I have come into the world, that I should bear [b]witness to the truth[/b]. Everyone who is of the truth [b]hears My voice."[/b] John 18:37

In Christ
Jeff


_________________
Jeff Marshalek

 2004/4/15 13:51Profile
lazarus
Member



Joined: 2004/4/9
Posts: 61
Connecticut

 Re:

"And then I will declare to them, I never knew you;
depart from Me; you who practice lawlessness."

So it will be those who in the eyes of the public casted out demons and did many wonderful works but yet maybe secretly maybe publicly maybe both, practiced lawlessness.


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Jesse

 2004/4/17 17:45Profile
bigdaveusa
Member



Joined: 2003/6/13
Posts: 49


 Re:

Excellent Philologos! Well said.
Quote:
"Our acceptance with God is not based in any way upon our contribution but upon Christ's. It is not based on what I do but upon what He has done. The death of the Son of God will forever remain the only basis of our acceptance with God. This is 'justification'; sanctification is another part of the story of salvation."

And our belief in it...
That is what translates into action:

2 Corinthians 5:7-21
"We live by faith, not by sight. 8We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord. 9So we make it our goal to please him, whether we are at home in the body or away from it. 10For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive what is due him for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad.11Since, then, we know what it is to fear the Lord, we try to persuade men. What we are is plain to God, and I hope it is also plain to your conscience. 12We are not trying to commend ourselves to you again, but are giving you an opportunity to take pride in us, so that you can answer those who take pride in what is seen rather than in what is in the heart. 13If we are out of our mind, it is for the sake of God; if we are in our right mind, it is for you. 14For Christ's love compels us, because we are convinced that one died for all, and therefore all died. 15And he died for all, that those who live should no longer live for themselves but for him who died for them and was raised again.
16So from now on we regard no one from a worldly point of view. Though we once regarded Christ in this way, we do so no longer. 17Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come! 18All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: 19that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting men's sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation. 20We are therefore Christ's ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ's behalf: Be reconciled to God. 21God made him who had no sin to be sin[1] for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God."

Thank you for your time....


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Dave

 2004/4/18 4:20Profile
rookie
Member



Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4792


 Re:

Those who practice lawlessness are those who do not experience the Cross.

Art Katz writes in his book, True Fellowship: To Him Be The Glory In The Church:

""The Consequences of the Cross
Jesus brought His death upon Himself by His own character, His own life and His message. What then shall be brought upon us if we adopt His character, move in His life, and proclaim his message? The disposition that clamors for prosperity, for “blessings” and the “rapture” as escape is not the spirit that is going to appreciate a message on suffering and the Cross. We know that the spirit of Antichrist is in the world. “Anti” not only means “opposed to,” but also seeking to be something like Him, yet not Him. How shocked and stunned might we be if we were to realize to what degree we ourselves have submitted and may actually be operating in that spirit—if our “Christ” is not the Christ who suffered, died and rose again! We nod our heads to the “doctrine of the Cross,” but in the actuality of our own knowledge and experience where do we essentially live our lives?

The Cross is the most unreligious symbol that can ever be imagined. The crucifixion of Jesus, the ending of a life in nakedness that began in nakedness, is the complete negation of every kind of conventional wisdom and religious notion that men could conjure. There is no way to come to an understanding of it by our own reasoning. The fact that we think we have, is contradicted by our lives. We can only come to it in darkness and repentance, and in no other way. It is too perverse, too ugly and too unappealing, for which reasons, only perverse, ugly and unattractive people have never had difficulty in coming to the Cross.

We need to not only see Jesus, but also the purpose for which our lives have been called:

For is was fitting for Him, for whom are all things, and through whom are all things, in bringing many sons to glory, to perfect the author of their salvation through sufferings (Heb. 2:10).

We were not called to success, happiness, and our own satisfaction, or only to have our own needs met. In fact, we do not have to be clever to realize that this poses a question, namely, if this kind of redemptive suffering was required to make Jesus perfect, by what means then shall we be made perfect? The answer is of course, through exactly the same process by which Jesus entered into perfection ?by the things which He suffered.

By sentimentalizing and distorting the Cross, thereby taking the sting out of it, we negate its death and suffering. The Cross should be the central and pivotal event of all our faith and life. All must go dark for us and become as night in the daytime of our comfortable, religious understanding. We have become too used to the Cross, and have made of it only a theory and formula for salvation. We have come to altar call after altar call, and invitation after invitation, laying our lives down before Christ again and again, and yet somehow we are still very much alive. The veil of selfishness, self-interest, vanity and pride is still not rent. The rocks of our hearts are still not split. The Cross of Christ needs to become for us an “event.”

There is only one way to enter it, namely, the total negation of all of our life, the doing away of ourselves in the yielding up of the ghost. If His glory is to be manifest in the earth, it shall be only through His resurrection life manifesting through those who have been joined with Him in death and burial, and have been raised with Him into that newness of life. God will only bury that which is dead. We will know that we have entered into the death when we see the evidence of the resurrection.

There is a real cutting that requires a real shedding of blood for any covenant of God, and we are in that covenant to the degree to which we have been joined to that cutting. Did we see our water baptism as some kind of biblical obligation, or did we see ourselves as being buried with Him? God knows those who are living in the newness of life and those who are not. Those who are mouthing and pronouncing New Testament terms, and who may actually even be involved in New Testament “ministry,” so to speak, may actually and unconsciously be putting their confidence in their flesh and their own natural ability and aptitude. You can, on that basis, make an impressive show of it ?but it is not newness of life. This is not some religious palaver. We are speaking of an utterly supernatural reality that brings the believer thereby into a new dimension of existence, reality and life. We are in that life or we are not. God has made it absolute. Merely to employ the word “resurrection” and allude to it, quote it, and preach it, does not mean that we have it. What is the evidence of our lives generally speaking and consistently? Are we in the flesh or in the Spirit? How many of us have tried to dismiss condemnation by quoting the Scripture over and over again: “There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus” (Rom. 8:1)—and have not been relieved. You can quote that scripture until you are blue in the face and still be under condemnation, if you are not in Christ Jesus. The pressure of the condemnation is to bring you to that very place. But who likes to be ‘cut,’ and who wants to see blood spilled? The flesh shrinks from it. Only those who love the Crucified One have any desire at all to be joined with Him in that place.

For you have died and your life is hidden with Christ in God. When Christ, who is our life, is revealed, then you also will be revealed [because you do not have any other] with Him in glory (Col. 3:3-4 Parenthesis mine).

Are we willing to have our lives predicated on that basis, and are we willing to cease our efforts to ‘get by’ on the strength of our own natural ability? Your life is dead except His life be revealed, which means we will be left humiliated often. When we want to shine, be clever, impressive, entertaining or whatever, then He simply will not be there to accommodate us. There will be no glory for us ever, but only glory for Him when His life shall be revealed. We are not living anymore by our own calculations or deliberations. We do not move on the basis of what is logical and reasonable. That is the world’s game. We move by His life. When His life moves, then we move. When His life will be expressed by speaking, then we speak. Trusting for His life, moment by moment, is the faith for which the saints once contended, and the just shall live by this faith."

Paul said somewhere, that men preach the gospel for their own gain. Never the less the gospel is preached. The signs and wonders done by these people give witness to the world that God is. A relationship is entirely something different. God is faithful, so what if some were disobedient. Let God be true and everyman a liar.

In Christ
Jeff


_________________
Jeff Marshalek

 2004/4/19 12:27Profile





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