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 salvation by our fruits?


From Matt 7:

16 By their fruits you will know them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles?
17
Just so, every good tree bears good fruit, and a rotten tree bears bad fruit.
18
A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a rotten tree bear good fruit.
19
Every tree that does not bear good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire.
20
So by their fruits you will know them.
21
"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven.
22
Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name? Did we not drive out demons in your name? Did we not do mighty deeds in your name?'
23
Then I will declare to them solemnly, 'I never knew you. Depart from me, you evildoers.'


They drive out demons in Jesus name, do mighty deeds in His name, and call upon Him fervently and regularly, yet they bear bad fruit. Their faith does not save them because they do not know that Jesus' salvation comes through the fruits of denial of self and the love of others, and not by or from ritual, public prayer, sprinkling with baptismal water, false communions, self-pitying confessions, emotionally stirring sermons, standing, sitting, singing, and praying when told to do so, "hireling" ministries, or any other religious construction of mankind.

Jake

 2004/3/19 11:02
nobody
Member



Joined: 2003/9/16
Posts: 64


 Re: salvation by our fruits?

Like so many Christians you have gotten within one word of accuracy in describing the role of works. That one erroneous word was "through."

No one will be saved who doesn't have faith in Christ. We are saved through faith. It is the type of faith, however, which will surely produce fruit that it real. A "faith" that results in no works is useless for salvation.

The thief on the cross was saved by faith. He had little time for works, but we can be assured that had he been spared at the last minute he would've gone on to do good works.

It is helpful to remember the Reformers saying "by grace through faith unto good works."

I remember learning in philosophy class at the University about conditions which are simultaneously necessary but insufficient. Faith is necessary and sufficient for salvation assuming it causes works which are necessary but insufficient on their own. Reversing the causality doesn't fly either.

All those depending on cheap grace --- Repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand! The tares will be pulled and burned in the end.


 2004/3/19 12:14Profile
nobody
Member



Joined: 2003/9/16
Posts: 64


 Re: salvation by our fruits?

17
Just so, every good tree bears good fruit, and a rotten tree bears bad fruit.
18
A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a rotten tree bear good fruit.


This is also a good clue that Jesus wasn't contradicting the rest of the NT. The fruit is always in keeping with the tree. The elect cannot help but be changed and motivated by the Spirit to bear fruit. The non-elect cannot perform pleasing works unto God regardless of what they do. Even their works which appear good to us merit no favor from God.

Jake is trying to get this passage to say that some who had genuine faith (good trees) could bear bad fruit by lack of works. We see that this isn't true and that any with bad fruit are bad trees and therefore not possessing of genuine faith in Christ.

What leads people to these conclusions is the high proportion of tares we allow in our churches by watering down the truth and refusing to discipline. This is the same thing that leads people to reject perseverance of the saints. We assume that all who say they are saved are. This is ridiculous and couldn't hold up under five minutes of scriptural scrutiny.

 2004/3/19 12:30Profile









 Re: works, faith


Nobody,

I have no quarrel with your point that faith is the foundation of salvation and that works without faith are insufficient.

The thief on the cross is, however, exceptionalism that we should not cling to. Jesus' point in Matt 7 is clear. Good fruits bear witness to true faith. If your church produces clear headed, charitable, humble, peace-loving practitioners, it is a good sign. If it produces dressed up hypocrites who attend regularly, pray loudly, fill up the offering plate, and snub the homeless man begging for quarter, that is something else.

If our faith does not move us to work for charity, grace, peace and justice in the here and now, we condemn ourselves to eternal death.

Jake

 2004/3/19 12:42
Zapthycat
Member



Joined: 2003/8/5
Posts: 75
Livermore, CA

 Re:

"If our faith does not move us to work for charity, grace, peace and justice in the here and now, we condemn ourselves to eternal death."

James says "show me your faith without works and I will show you my faith BY my works".

It's completely true that, if you have that faith, and obviously the time, then the works will follow. After all, we are judged by our works. And it is true that we are justified (defended) by our works. NOT the works of the law, however.

I must once again emphisis that being justified is not being saved. Think about it this way, justified is "defended", as if you are the defendant in a court case, you are being accused by satan, that accuser of the brethren, and your works justify you.... defend you. Prove you, so long as you have your faith.

:)


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J. Wilson

 2004/3/21 5:27Profile
philologos
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Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Zapthycat writes I must once again emphisis that being justified is not being saved. Think about it this way, justified is "defended", as if you are the defendant in a court case, you are being accused by satan, that accuser of the brethren, and your works justify you.... defend you. Prove you, so long as you have your faith.

There is a pigeon-English definition of 'justification' which runs "God, Him say, me OK". It is surprising accurate as a definition. Justification comes from the legal background used particularly by Paul in Romans. The consequence of a trial was that the magistrate/judge would publically declare the defendent to be 'guilty' or 'justified'; there were no other options. (justified does not mean 'defended'. It is a judicial pronouncement)If the defendent is pronounced 'guilty' the sentence is pronounced and carried out. The scriptural word for 'the sentence pronounced' is 'comdemnation'. From that time the 'guilty' one is a 'condemned man'; on his way to his punishment. For those in Christ there is literally 'no condemnation'; no pronouncing of sentence, no carrying out of the sentence.

Our acceptance with God is not based in any way upon our contribution but upon Christ's. It is not based on what I do but upon what He has done. The death of the Son of God will forever remain the only basis of our acceptance with God. This is 'justification'; sanctification is another part of the story of salvation.


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Ron Bailey

 2004/4/15 7:02Profile
rookie
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Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4794


 Re:

I am more in line with what Zapthycat said. We are not justified by Christ's death. Christ's death provides the atonement, the propitiation for our sin. It is the ressurection that justifies us.

Romans 4:25, "who was delivered up because of our offenses, and was raised because of our justification."

We in a sense are not justified by the death but by the Life. Those who have faith, (saying yes to Jesus), will know the Life.

Romans 8:29-30, "For whom He foreknew, He also predestined [b]to be conformed to the image of His Son[/b], that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called; these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified."

Those who believe Jesus, will be justified by their faith in Jesus. The evidence of their faith in Jesus, will glorify God.

In Christ
Jeff


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Jeff Marshalek

 2004/4/15 11:13Profile
InTheLight
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Joined: 2003/7/31
Posts: 2739
Phoenix, Arizona USA

 Re: justification

Quote:
We are not justified by Christ's death. Christ's death provides the atonement, the propitiation for our sin. It is the ressurection that justifies us.



To my thinking both the death and resurrection are part of justification. I believe the resurrection completes and perfects our justification. The death of our precious Lord payed our debt, and by his resurrection we are aquitted.

[i]Who is he that condemns? Christ Jesus, who died--more than that, who was raised to life--is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us.[/i](Romans 8:34 NIV)

In Christ,

Ron


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Ron Halverson

 2004/4/15 11:51Profile
crsschk
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Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re: salvation by our fruits?

[i]"[b]Not everyone[/b] who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven.
22
[b]Many[/b] will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name? Did we not drive out demons in your name? Did we not do mighty deeds in your name?'
23
Then I will declare to them solemnly, 'I never knew you. Depart from me, you evildoers.'[/i]

Interesting this came up again today as I had been musing on this just this morning.

Though I was in Hebrews 12, somehow I made this connection with the above verses. Bear with me.

Heb 12:3 -[b]For consider him,[/b].... In the greatness of his person, as God, the Son of God, the heir of all things; and in his offices of prophet, priest, and King, as the Saviour of lost sinners, the Leader and Commander of the people, as the apostle and high priest of our profession: consider him in his human nature, his conversation on earth, and what he did and suffered for men; how that in his nature he was pure and holy, in his conversation harmless and innocent, in his deportment meek and lowly; who went about doing good to the souls of men, and at last suffered and died, and is now glorified: consider the analogy between him and us, and how great is the disproportion; and therefore if he was ill treated, no wonder we should consider him under all his reproaches and sufferings:

[b]that endured such contradiction of sinners against himself;[/b] against his person, they denying his deity, and speaking against his sonship, and against his offices; mocking him as a King, deriding him as a prophet, and treating him with the utmost contempt as a priest and Saviour; and against his actions, his works of mercy to the bodies of men, when done on the sabbath day; his conversing with sinners for the good of their souls, as if he was an encourager of them in sin, and a partner with them; his miracles, as if they were done by the help of the devil; and against the whole series of his life, as if it was criminal. Now we should analogize this contradiction, and see what proportion there is between this, and what is endured by us: we should consider the aggravations of it, that it was "against himself"; sometimes it was against his disciples, and him through them, as it is now against his members, and him in them; but here it was immediately and directly against himself: and this he endured "from sinners"; some more secret, as the Scribes, Sadducees, and Pharisees; some more open, as the common people; some of them the vilest of sinners, the most abandoned of creatures, as the Roman soldiers, and Herod's men of war: and this should be considered, that we cannot be contradicted by viler or meaner persons; and it is worthy of notice, with what courage and bravery of mind, with what patience and invincible constancy he endured it: this should be recollected for imitation and encouragement,

John Gill

These are my notes;
"Lord, Lord..." Why I find this topic coming up here, unsure....

Thought: That it equals spiritual pride, "Did we not do..." that we would even have the audicity to think we could say "look what we have done"
We are all unprofitable servants..

Maybe even our sufferings, "Oh, how we have suffered for..." can't even finish the sentence, likely most of it is deserved to begin with and if it is from the Lord, no wonder the saints rejoiced at being able to "partake in the sufferings of our Lord" What an honor to partake of that holiness...but as some kind of merit or to say "But Lord..." is rubbish...

If you were used to save a million souls what would it matter? You still would come the same way as the man who cried "have mercy on me, a sinner" in fact it is the only way you will come..."This man was justified" not in and of himself, but by the Lord. It is He who exalts, it is He who lift's up.

So if on the one hand there are '[b]many[/b]' that will dare to [b]'say'[/b] "Lord, Lord" as if their works have earned them a 'right', perhaps the other, the one that "[i]... does the will of my Father in heaven.[/i]" Who, if this is true will have produced fruit, still says "Lord, Lord,...have mercy on me a sinner!"


Let us consider Him! If we do rightly consider, we will be humbled every time. Certainly our best is only [i]"our reasonable service"[/i].

This may be a bit disjointed, but consider the source
:-)


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Mike Balog

 2004/4/15 11:55Profile
lazarus
Member



Joined: 2004/4/9
Posts: 61
Connecticut

 Re:

In God we trust? or In ourselves we trust?

Quote:

"Thought: That it equals spiritual pride, "Did we not do..." that we would even have the audicity to think we could say "look what we have done" We are all unprofitable servants"
My thought exactly

"Not everyone who says to me "Lord Lord, shall enter the kingdom of God"

Is it possible that these people will be those on Judgment Day actually bragging and boasting about what they have done. Wonderful works, casting out demons, etc. "Oh Lord remember me, the famous missionary?' or 'Hey Lord, remember me, the big American preacher who gave all those huge altar calls?" Are they trusting in their own works? The Lord will say to them "I never KNEW you." That is key to understanding this.

Nahum 1:7 "The Lord is good, a stronghold in the day of trouble; and He KNOWS those who trust in Him." I believe those who will boast of their works on Judgment Day are trusting in their works rather then trusting in Christ crusified.

2 Tim 2:19 "The Lord knows those who are His"

Ezekiel 33:12 "The righteousness of the righteous man shall not deliver him in the day of his transgression; as for the wickedness of the wicked, he shall not fall because of it in the day that he turns from his wickedness; nor shall the righteous be able to live because of HIS RIGHTEOUSNESS in the day that he sins. When I say to the righteous that he shall surely live, BUT HE TRUSTS IN HIS OWN RIGHTEOUSNESS and commits iniquity, none of his righteous works shall be remembered but because of the iniquity that he has committed, he shall die."

Ps. 52:7-8 "Here is a man who did not make God his strength, but trusted in the abundance of his righes, and strengthened himself in his wickedness. But I am like a green olive tree in the house of God; I TRUST IN THE MERCY OF GOD forever and ever."

Ps. 32:10 "Many sorrows shall be to the wicked; but he who TRUSTS in the Lord, mercy shall surround him."

Ps 34:22 "THe Lord redeems the soul of His sercants, AND NONE OF THOSE WHO TRUST IN HIM SHALL BE CONDEMNED."

Ps 37:40 "And the Lord shall help them and deliver them; He shall deliver them from the wicked, and save them, BECAUSE THEY TRUST IN HIM."

Ps 62:8 "TRUST in Him at all times, you people; Pour out your heart before Him; GOD IS A REGUGE FOR US."


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Jesse

 2004/4/15 12:29Profile





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