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dreiher
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Joined: 2007/3/27
Posts: 1


 Re:

Thank you Jesse!

I am neither a Calvinist nor an Arminian, but I agree with you that hyperCalvinism teaches that God is responsible for sin, and am probably involved in evangelism like you.
Thank God for online sermons!

Praise God that he has chosen preaching as the means to convice people that Jesus grants eternal life on the basis of faith alone! What a wondrous thing to see the light come on in people's hearts as a result of the words I use! It does not make any sense why there would be preaching or sermons and application, if there was no free will! Why preach, if your hearers have no choice as to whether they listen to you or not? I would give up and go home, it is just too much effort to put out if people really have no choice. It would not be worth the enormous sacrifices needed.

- Don

 2007/3/27 7:27Profile
philologos
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Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Paris Reidhead's answer to "Why preach?"

Quote:
dreiher on 2007/3/27 12:27:12
Why preach, if your hearers have no choice as to whether they listen to you or not?

I am not a Calvinist and they are quite able to plead their own case but I don't think this does justice to the real question.

"Why preach?" is a very valid question. What is the motivation in our preaching? The most listened to sermon in history will have some surprising answers to this question and you can hear it [url=http://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/visit.php?lid=282]here[/url]. So far over 74000 people on Sermonindex alone have heard it!!


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Ron Bailey

 2007/3/27 11:37Profile
PreachParsly
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Posts: 2164
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 Re: Paris Reidhead's answer to "Why preach?"

I've not seen anyone in this thread give a convincing argument that there is a "will." There are some that are discussing freedom of choice.

I'm just putting this out there to see what you think...

How could Ron be the first to believe that there isn't a "choice making faculty" called "the will" if you can't show anything from scripture saying that there is a "choice making faculty" called "the will?"


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Josh Parsley

 2007/3/27 16:52Profile
JaySaved
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Joined: 2005/7/11
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 Re:

Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done. (Luk 22:42)

There is plenty of biblical evidence for what we are referring to as the Will. The problem is that no one seems to want to see it.

If you cannot see a Will involved in the above verses then there is nothing I can say to change your mind. It has been a very good conversation thus far but I am afraid that if we keep going we are just going to go in circles.

 2007/3/27 17:45Profile









 Re:

Quote:

philologos wrote:
I ask again, as I have done frequently, will someone show me a single verse of scripture which indicates that we have such a faculty; bound or free.

This may already have been answered, (I've only read as far as page 2 of this thread!) its Luke 22:42

[i][color=003399] 41 And He was withdrawn from them about a stone’s throw, and He knelt down and prayed, 42 saying, “Father, if it is Your will, take this cup away from Me; nevertheless not My [u]will[/u], but Yours, be done.”[/color][/i]
The first "will" is actually a verb, "If you are willing", but the second is the noun, meaning "will" (θέλημα [thelema]

So there's your one verse! :-P

Jeannette

[edit added]PS. [i][color=003366]In my interlinear it is literally, "but not the will of me, but of you let be"[/color][/i]

Isn't that beautiful!

 2007/3/27 18:27









 Re:

Quote:

LittleGift wrote:
Quote:

Luke 22:42
i][color=003399] 41 And He was withdrawn from them about a stone’s throw, and He knelt down and prayed, 42 saying, “Father, if it is Your will, take this cup away from Me; nevertheless not My [u]will[/u], but Yours, be done.”[/color][/i]
The first "will" is actually a verb, "If you are willing", but the second is the noun, meaning "will" (θέλημα [thelema]

I read these verses as saying that Jesus deliberately let go [i]His own will[/i] and chose the Father's instead. He did NOT want to go to the Cross, but as the perfect Son of God, submitted His (human) will, laid it down, in love and obedience to God.

And that tells me that He can give me strength to lay down my will also, when God tells me to do something I don't want to do (usually something trivial but still it can be a battle to hand over , and be willing).

AS (I think) Watchman Nee said, "The Cross is when God's will crosses yours, and you choose God's.

(I'm neither an Armenian or a Calvinist too!)

Jeannette

 2007/3/27 18:36
philologos
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 Re:

Quote:
LittleGift on 2007/3/27 23:27:43
So there's your one verse!



I'm sorry I ought to have put a warning notice around that one to prevent anyone falling into the hole! ;-)

'the will' that the Lord refers to here is clearly not a reference to a faculty of the soul called 'the will'. It is a reference to his own choice. It is the choice that he would make rather than some faculty within which does the choosing.

The reference to 'God's will' makes it plain that the verse is not talking about a faculty in the soul of God called 'the will' but simply His decree or decision.

In case you haven't read all the thread, I am not disputing the need for choice in human beings but am questioning just where that choice is made.

Many people refer to 'the will' as though it is some kind of autonomous function that has a mind of its own and which drags us into all kinds of errors.

Let me tell you how I first got started on this theme many years ago. We had a sister in the church who always struggled with 'her will'. She had been told as a child that she had 'a strong will' and this was her particular difficulty. Many times she had almost come to faith only to back away saying 'I can't, my will is too strong'. It became somebody else's problem. 'the problem isn't me, it is my will'.

I told her; there is just you, forget your 'will' and just choose to obey God. If you don't you are responsible, not your will. Don't ask the question 'can I really put my will into it, just put yourself into it'. 'Choose [b]you[/b] who [b]you[/b] will serve.

It broke the spell; she came to faith.


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Ron Bailey

 2007/3/27 18:52Profile









 Re:

Quote:
There are only two options:

1. The will is under the law of liberty

2. The will is under the law of necessity

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


But both of your options presume the existence of something called 'the will'. A concept for which I still ask biblical reference.

If this is a biblical construct it ought not to be difficult to find a single veres which clearly points to such a faculty?



Quote:
I've not seen anyone in this thread give a convincing argument that there is a "will." There are some that are discussing freedom of choice.

I'm just putting this out there to see what you think...

How could Ron be the first to believe that there isn't a "choice making faculty" called "the will" if you can't show anything from scripture saying that there is a "choice making faculty" called "the will?"



I have never heard anyone actually question the existence of the will itself. Armenians believe man is free to will as he will. And at least Calvinists acknowledge that man does have a will, though they believe God controls it or forces it by necessity.

The debate has always been weather or not the will is free or not, I have never heard of a debate on whether there is a will or not!!

[b]But I am shocked that some are saying it hasn't already been established in this thread that the bible affirms a choice making faculty called the will![/b]

Here is part of the original post that started this thread. [b]Feel free to look up any of the bible references:[/b]

[b]THE WILL IN SCRIPTURES[/b] [i](free or not)[/i]

The most common used word in the Greek New Testament for the will of man, that I have found, is “thelo ethelo” which is to “determine, choose, prefer, desire, wish, incline, will, delight in, intent, or love”.

Here are a few examples:

Matthew 23:37 and Luke 13:34 - “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would [thelo ethelo] I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathered her chickens under her wings, and ye would [thelo ethelo] not!”

Matthew 22:3 - “And sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding and they would [thelo ethelo] not come.”

Luke 19:27 - “But those mine enemies, which would [thelo ethelo] not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.”

John 5:40 “And ye will [thelo ethelo] not come to me, that ye might have life.”

Revelations 22:17 “And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will [thelo ethelo], let him take the water of life freely.”

“Thelo ethelo” is translated in the bible either as “would”, “willingly” or as “willing”.

Verses translated as willingly: John 6:21, 2Peter 3:5

Verses translated as willing: Matthew 1:19, Luke 10:29, Luke 23:20, John 5:35, Acts 24:27, Acts 25:9, Romans 9:22, Hebrews 13:18

Verses translated as would:

Matthew: 2:18, 5:42, 7:12, 12:38, 14:5, 18:23, 18:30, 22:3, 23:37, 27:15, 27:34
Mark: 3:13, 6:19, 6:26, 6:48, 7:24, 9:30, 10:35, 10:36
Luke: 6:31, 15:28, 16:26, 18:4, 18:13
John: 1:43, 6:11, 7:1, 7:44, 9:27, 12:21
Acts: 7:39, 10:10, 14:13, 16:3, 19:33, 24:6, 23:09
Romans: 1:13, 7:15, 7:16, 7:19, 7:20, 7:21, 11:25, 16:19
1Corinthians: 7:7, 7:32, 10:1, 10:20, 11:3, 12:1, 14:5
2Corinthians: 1:8, 5:4, 12:20
Galatians: 1:7, 3:2, 4:17, 5:17
Colossians: 1:27, 2:1
1Thessalonians: 2:18, 4:13
2Thessalonians: 3:10
Philemon: 1:14
Hebrews: 12:17

There are other greek words used for the will of man:

“Boulomai” literally means “to be willing” or to “intend”.

This word is translated as “would” or as “willing”.

Places “boulomai” is translated as “would”:

Acts: 17:20, 19:30, 22:30, 23:28, 25:20, 25:22, 28:18,
Philemon: 1:12, 1:13
2John 1:12
3John 1:10

Places “boulomai” translated as “willing”:

Mark 15:15
Luke 22:24
Acts 17:43
Heb 6:17
2Peter 3:9

“Euchomaia” is another which mean’s “to pray, will, or wish”. It is used only in Acts 26:29

“Euokeo” is another word that means “willing”. It is used in 2Corinthians 5:8 and 1Thessalonians 2:8

“Prothumia” mean’s “willing mind” and is used in 2 Corinthians 8:12 and 1Peter 5:2

“Hekousios” mean’s “voluntariness” or “willingness” and is used in Hebrews 10:26 and 1Peter 5:2.

Hebrews 10:26 says that if a person sins willfully “hekousios” or voluntarily, after they have received “lambano” or have “accepted” or “attained” or “seized” the truth, the blood of Jesus Christ does not cover their sin, but they are heading towards judgment.
“Authairetos” is a word which means “self chosen” or “voluntary” or “willful”. It is used in 2Corinthians 8:3

“hekown” also means “voluntary” or “willingly”and is used in Romans 8:20 and 1Corinthians 9:17

“hekousion” means “voluntariness” or “willingly” and is found in Philemon 1:14

 2007/3/27 21:31
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
[u]Lazarus1719 on 2007/3/28 2:31:03[/u]
But I am shocked that some are saying it hasn't already been established in this thread that the bible affirms a choice making faculty called the will!

Here is part of the original post that started this thread. Feel free to look up any of the bible references:


I don't know why you should be shocked I responded to your original post and asked for biblical evidence of a faculty called 'the will'. I am not disputing that human beings have the power of choice; that is essential to their nature as human beings. What I am asking, and I ask it again, is why we need to posit the notion of a separate faculty within man to enable choices?

None of your references have any relevance to my question. They all support the notion of man's ability to choose; I am not disputing that.

Quote:
I have never heard anyone actually question the existence of the will itself. Armenians believe man is free to will as he will. And at least Calvinists acknowledge that man does have a will, though they believe God controls it or forces it by necessity.


Well, you have now and I am still not getting any biblical answers.

In his first lecture Finney says The intellect is the faculty of knowledge; the sensibility is the faculty or susceptibility of feeling; [b]the will is the executive faculty, or the faculty of doing or acting[/b]. All thinking, perceiving, intuiting, reasoning, opining, forming notions or ideas, belong to the intellect.
Where do we have any biblical evidence for an 'executive faculty'?

I have no problems with the concepts of mind, conscience, sense, heart, spirit, understanding, knowledge etc... they are all biblical concepts. My question is [u]still[/u] why have we adopted the notion of an 'executive faculty' called 'the will'?

Where did this 'executive faculty' get his authority. An executive in the business sense can be held accountable but who is the 'executive faculty' and who gave it authority to take executive decisions on my behalf?


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Ron Bailey

 2007/3/28 5:56Profile





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