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JaySaved
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Joined: 2005/7/11
Posts: 1131
Kentucky

 Re: Free Will (In Greek)

Regarding 2 Peter 3:9
Jesse said:

Quote:
It is not God’s will, not God’s intention for anyone to perish. This is the benevolent reason God has for not pouring out His wrath yet. He is waiting patiently, or is longsuffering, with the hope and will that more sinners will repent and be saved.



By your logic Jesus will never come again. (I am not accusing you of denying the Second-Coming, but following your logic.)

Think about this. Every day more and more children all around the world are coming into the age of accountability. This number grows every single day. Now, compare this number to the number of people who come to a saving knowledge of Jesus Christ every day. Sadly, the numbers are not even close.

So, the longer Jesus waits to return, more and more people are being born and are lost. In fact, the more Jesus is patient more people will die and go to hell.

This is not what Peter was saying at all. I have posted the true interpretation of 2 Peter 3:9 in detail before and will again if someone is interested, but to be more concise. God is coming back and is patient with the foreknown (Rom 8:29) not willing that any of them should perish but come to repentance.

 2007/3/23 10:28Profile
philologos
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Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
I might sound like an Arminian here for a moment, but if their is no Will of man, then why or how does man choose to follow Christ? How does a man have faith if he doesn't have a Will?



He just chooses to believe what God has said to him. My difficulty is with this peculiar concept of a faculty of the soul known as 'the will'.

I ask again, as I have done frequently, will someone show me a single verse of scripture which indicates that we have such a faculty; bound or free.


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Ron Bailey

 2007/3/23 12:54Profile
JaySaved
Member



Joined: 2005/7/11
Posts: 1131
Kentucky

 Re:

Quote:
He just chooses to believe what God has said to him. My difficulty is with this peculiar concept of a faculty of the soul known as 'the will'.



It is this act (or decision) of choosing that we are calling the Will. Is there anyone throughout Christian History who denied the Will of Man?

Quote:
I ask again, as I have done frequently, will someone show me a single verse of scripture which indicates that we have such a faculty; bound or free.



Pick any verse that speaks of man making a choice.

 2007/3/23 13:27Profile
PreachParsly
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Joined: 2005/1/14
Posts: 2164
Arkansas

 Re:

From what I know of Ron, he isn't saying man doesn't make choices. He is saying that the "choice making faculty" isn't called "the will" according to scripture.


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Josh Parsley

 2007/3/23 13:29Profile
JaySaved
Member



Joined: 2005/7/11
Posts: 1131
Kentucky

 Re:

Quote:
He is saying that the "choice making faculty" isn't called "the will" according to scripture.



Brother Ron, I am not accusing you of denying that men make decisions. My question is what do you call that "choice making faculty" most of us call the Will?

 2007/3/23 13:33Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

1.

Quote:
Brother Ron, I am not accusing you of denying that men make decisions. My question is what do you call that "choice making faculty" most of us call the Will?


I call it 'me' and I hold 'myself' responsible for all decisions that 'I' make; I think God does the same. I do not 'blame' my 'will' for anything good or bad.

My objection is that there [b]are[/b] biblical faculties of the soul eg conscience, heart, mind, desires but there is no reference to this thing we have chosen to call 'the will'. I think it is a 'red-herring'. (do you have that expression over there? :-) )

The problem is 'me' not 'my will'. There is no cure for this fantasy feature called 'the will' but there is certainly a cure for 'me'.

2.
Quote:
Pick any verse that speaks of man making a choice.

Pick any verse that says it is 'the will' that makes the choice. ;-)

The reason I raise this from time to time is because I think we have all bought into to a model of humanity which has no biblical basis. We then argue over the slavery or freedom of this faculty which we have invented. As Hans Christian Anderson at times I just feel compelled to cry "look at the king, look at the king, he's all together.." you know the rest.


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Ron Bailey

 2007/3/24 6:16Profile
UniqueWebRev
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Joined: 2007/2/9
Posts: 640
Southern California

 Re: Free Will (In Greek)

Alas, you ruined a perfectly good exposition on free will under God's permissive will by attaching one quote at the end that makes a good choice of man to be virtuous, a seeming impossibility, simply because a few Greek Priests believed that virtue could be accomplished by human effort.

It can be. Merely, every virtue cannot be accomplished by man, every day for all his days.

Therefore, man is without complete righteousness without Jesus.

Can you not take a stand without adding a caveat at the end, lest you displease someone?

Disappointed in you,


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Forrest Anderson

 2007/3/24 7:58Profile
UniqueWebRev
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Joined: 2007/2/9
Posts: 640
Southern California

 Re: Free Choice

Quote:

JaySaved wrote:
Quote:
I just do not see the concept of 'a will' in scripture. I see references to desire and willingness but I think the notion of 'my will' almost as a self-functioning faculty is not scriptural.



I have heard you say this before and it does surprise me to hear it again.

I might sound like an Arminian here for a moment, but if their is no Will of man, then why or how does man choose to follow Christ? How does a man have faith if he doesn't have a Will?



Bless you, brother, for your essential honesty.

Blessings,


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Forrest Anderson

 2007/3/24 8:06Profile
lovegrace
Member



Joined: 2006/8/12
Posts: 313


 Re:

Quote:

philologos wrote:
The problem is 'me' not 'my will'.



So, what your trying to say, correct me if I'm wrong, is that the problem is our sin-nature, that thing indwelt in every unbeliever and not 'my desires' because someone's desires are controlled by THEM (Their nature, weither it be of sin or of the Holy Spirit)

 2007/3/24 10:21Profile
Meriwether
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Joined: 2006/8/13
Posts: 33


 Re: Free Will (In Greek)

His Grace is Amazing! He owes it to no one. No one can earn it. The fact that he gives it to anyone is... well, amazing.

The whole debate over our "will" is so confusing to me. Does God flip a switch in our "will?" Are some folks capable of inclining their will toward God? I just don't know. It's an invisible process.

All I know is this: We are commanded to tell the Gospel to unbelievers. The Holy Spirit does the rest. Right?

If you can make this more clear to me, have at it. However, my attention span is short. Be concise.

 2007/3/24 11:46Profile





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