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Compton
Member



Joined: 2005/2/24
Posts: 2732


 Re:

Quote:
Please, ask more questions than stating assumptions. Dig a little deeper into the mix of the forum headings. Mix in some of the considerations of these elders presented.



I appreciate this.

My questions are as much about my own intent as anyone else here. It's certainly not my intention to 'paint' SI with a broad brush...unless I'm under the stroke as well! I really did want to learn if someone knows something that Chadster and Lotis don't about the Call. It should be a simple question to answer.

Many years ago a friend of mine left the church we were attending. When I called them asking why, they said that they had a problem with the pastor and gave me only cryptic warnings like "It's great to preach grace, but you still need to live righteously."

Well I couldn't understand what they were saying and assumed that they had become too judgemental. 6 months later the whole church found out what this person already knew...the pastor had been carrying on affairs with several women and had skipped town. I was as dissapointed with this person's cryptic warning as the pastor himself.

My problem with discrete cryptic answers is that some things don't deserve to be cryptic. If something is wrong with Joe Engle or the Call then let's hear it! It's not exactly helpful to know something is up and not warn at least the appropriate people. Let's just state the facts.

I understand why some people would find the Call unsuitable to their tastes. I myself would be the first to admit that I am wary of their charismatic tones (from what I could see). But really, isn't that me just being small minded...and a bit narcissistic if my discomfort keeps me from encouraging people towards God?

This event could be a good thing in the lives of these people. Yes it won't change people permenantly if they don't continue abiding in Christ daily. But then again isn't that true of any meeting? Won't that be true of the SI conference..or even of the prayer meeting at your own church?

So my question remains...why couldn't the Call be a Holy Spirit event in many people's lives? Perhaps even the spark of revival...or is that impossible? Life is filled with exciting and wonderful reversals. Anyone watching the March Madness Basketball tournament can see this principle at work...the other team can be winning the whole game and then a three point jumper at the buzzer can throw the game our way. We think we know the ending of the game...but then we are surprised.

I guess I'm mainly wanting to gaurd myself. Occasionally there is talk in these forums about how only 2% of the Christians in this country are really born again, and how the economy is going to collapse, and how the end is coming and how it's all so hopeless.

Well I have to be honest...before I let these 'prophetic words' into my heart I want to make sure they are something more then good ole' fashioned fear and fretting. I'm not as worried about the end of the world as much as I am being surrounded by Christians who have given up. To continue with the sports metaphor... there are two kinds of people in tough times: whiners and winners. Whiners are experts on the most probable outcome because they spend all their time reading and observing. They are often the wisest of us all, as it is a pitfall of education to become pessimistic. (So says Solomon...) Winners on the other hand seem naive, and often become famously embarrassed, failing at almost everything they attempt. In the end they are the only ones that can make a difference. With three seconds on the clock and the other team ahead by two points, while the dissapointed fans are thinking about beating the parking lot traffic or mulling over their expert play by play critiques, a winner is just dumb enough, or determined enough, to take that last shot.

I'll stop here...I'm not making pointed accusations. I am only challenging the reflex assumption that if it doesn't come from our small camp then it's 'wrong.'...that's all. I remember a tme when God poured his grace out on me...and from that I desired holiness before I ever heard a holiness preacher use the word. later the instruction was useful to build me up and to affirm these things...but that style of preaching built upon the seed that was there. This is how sufficient the Holy Spirit is...he can meet us at our imperfect starting points and lead us into a more perfect place.

I have had to learn the value of listening patiently and respectfully to people in this forum and it has been a tremendous blessing to me. Now I would like to use that developed discipline to give Joe Engle a chance...maybe he and the people who show up to pray and rededicate their lives will teach us something. :-)

Blessings,

MC


_________________
Mike Compton

 2007/3/25 19:27Profile
jordanamo
Member



Joined: 2006/11/23
Posts: 397


 Re:

In my view, and something I think many don't understand is these movements in these modern days, is that they are nothing like/near the Welsh movement etc. The Welsh revival had such an aura of holiness and awe and understanding of God imo. They weren't "up" about "revival" either-- they just wanted to seek God and repent etc.. You know they wouldn't even allow any instruments in their meetings. Too old-fashioned? Nah, they just wanted not any flesh to get in the way of them and God. Which instrumental (amplification especially) music can bring.

So, I just don't sense any Truth/Apostolic vibes from this. None at all. Is it just me? Could be! Maybe this is of God, you guys have the full right to believe that... I simply don't. I've read everything on their site and their video etc.

It thus appears in full to be a false charismatic movement precipitated upon good intentions but ultimately lacking in Apostolicity.

Of course it (TheCall) is biblical in many respects, and it may seem difficult to deny its validity thus, but being merely "biblical" is not enough if the corresponding apostolic reality is not there, which I whole-heartedly believe is the case here.

Jordan

 2007/3/25 19:45Profile
chadster
Member



Joined: 2006/1/8
Posts: 58


 Re:

Jordan, if you knew anything about the call and if you read Lotis's post, this IS a CALL to holiness. Lou Engle's passion is not the "romance" of the Gospel (as he's been accused of); but the call to consecration and holiness. He speaks of a generation of young people who have taken the "Nazarite" vow, who will choose to live HOLY in a world filled with lust and sin.

On another note, his son moved to San Francisco and is raising up a house of prayer in a homosexual community. He is passionate about "standing in the gap" and interceding for the salvation of these sinners whom Christ died to save; and he has consecrated his life to this calling. We can sit in our seats of judgment but how many of us are this sold out to the Lord??? What kind of man does it take to raise up a son who has this kind of heart that is so like Christ's?

 2007/3/25 22:35Profile
John173
Member



Joined: 2007/1/30
Posts: 289
Omaha

 Re:

Mike wrote,

Quote:
Not everything is responded to and not everything is ignored. I do as a moderator here take a bit of umbrage at slights upon the makeup of this forum because of these perceptions and yes that does include the often poor responses noted in certain replies. However, to cast everything into this light is just as poor. It really boils down to the perception and the contributions.



Forgive me as well if I seemed to paint with too broad a brush. I do not take any personal offense if a thread I have started doesn't get responses. As mentioned in my first reply, the subject matter that [i]seems to be[/i] getting ignored is the topic of grace.

One thing I have observed about Christianity down through the ages is what I would term a pendulum swing. During the reformation when revivals seemed to spring up regularly, holiness preaching ran hot and heavy. This was followed by an age of legalism that cast a pall of dead religion over the American landscape. In reaction to this we have moved the pendulum to the other side and over emphasized grace, to the point that many American Christians have no fear of God and do not understand the need for repentance. Now, here at SI, I see many well intentioned brothers attempting to swing the pendulum back over to holiness.

There must be a balance between these two extremes! Too much holiness preaching can lead people to reject God because they don't believe they can possibly live up to the level of holiness postulated as necessary for true salvation to be evident. Too much grace and people can be lead to believe they're saved when they are not.

So while I do not take personal offence to non responses when I raise this issue, it does concern me. I have raised this issue in responses to threads as well as starting threads and incorporating it into threads. So far, at least that I am aware of, there has not been a single comment or response specific to the topic of grace, especially in regard to giving brethren the benefit of grace when they don't live up to the standards of holiness we have set.

I feel compelled to give out a general warning or rather caution to my brethren here to be careful not to lose the true grace of God. The word was after all used 133 times in the New Testament.

Just to clarify a bit. I am NOT refering to discussions revolving around gracious speech toward each other on this forum. This does get discussed quite frequently, as it should.

This topic feels out of place on this thread. This response is also falling short of expressing my heart in this regard, I am tired but felt a need to comment on Mike's thoughts.

In sincere love toward you all,

Doug


_________________
Doug Fussell

 2007/3/25 23:42Profile
crsschk
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re:

Quote:
what I would term a pendulum swing


Zac recently termed it 'pendulumitis' :-)

Thanks Doug,

I do hear you brother. Perhaps it is not stated enough and understand your concerns in that matter. Similarly, the dis-unity and oft times strife and division (gracious speech yes, but the issues of the heart) those that would be of great concern from my observance ...

Well rounded, truly [i]biblical[/i] ...

[i]But he giveth more grace. Wherefore he saith, God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble.[/i]
James 4:6 (KJV)

It was a general statement of sorts and really had no one in particular in mind. I guess it was just more of a reminder and a recognition for those that may not be as familiar with the attempts here.


_________________
Mike Balog

 2007/3/26 0:24Profile
John173
Member



Joined: 2007/1/30
Posts: 289
Omaha

 Re:

Thanks Mike,

I did recognize your comments as being somewhat general, though my first post seemed to fall into the category of what 'gave you umbrance'. :-( I hope I didn't come off [i]too[/i] defensive.

Do you have any idea where you heard brother Poonen refer to 'pendulumitis'? It sounds like a sermon I'd be interested in hearing.

Thanks,

Doug


_________________
Doug Fussell

 2007/3/26 0:44Profile
Compton
Member



Joined: 2005/2/24
Posts: 2732


 Re:

Sometimes brethren I feel stuck in a ditch, waiting for some impossibly perfect revival preacher to come and pull us out. I want to make sure I personally am not hero worshipping or imagining history with only the best parts. I'm not saying we are...but I am considering the possibility.

Quote:

jordanamo wrote:
In my view, and something I think many don't understand is these movements in these modern days, is that they are nothing like/near the Welsh movement etc. The Welsh revival had such an aura of holiness and awe and understanding of God imo.



Brother, in all humility I would ask us all to make sure that our perception of these hallowed events isn't a burden we put on each other. The Welsh revival had it's share of spiritual shortcomings. As I recall Evan Roberts ended up being quite depressed over the ultimate results. (Ironically the book he later wrote with Jessie Penn Lewis on spiritual warfare and demonic powers in the Christian life is a favorite among Charismatics!)

I am not cross or upset at all. I'm just wanting to make sure we have good reasons when we dismiss people who express a desire to repent and seek the Lord.

Blessings,

MC



_________________
Mike Compton

 2007/3/26 3:03Profile
jordanamo
Member



Joined: 2006/11/23
Posts: 397


 Re:

Quote:
I am not cross or upset at all. I'm just wanting to make sure we have good reasons when we dismiss people who express a desire to repent and seek the Lord.


True... trust me, I'm not dismissing this based solely on past events such as the Welsh Revival at all... that is not my acid test... merely drawing an analogy that is still relevant no matter if it was 100 years ago. They want revival, for instance-- so I drew a parallel to the Welsh Revival.

I dismiss these people as I said simply from the clear and direct lack of apostolicity that I sense from them. I am not saying they aren't saved, or that they are going to hell, just that I don't sense any apostolicity from them... it's all sentimental to me.

People that express a desire to repent and seek the Lord may seem of no harm to you. You may find it hard for someone to criticize, for it's quite biblical, after all. But if it lacks the Spirit of Truth, it is not good at all. I see this as lacking that (from what I have read, and from what I've seen), and as being a breeding ground for many deceptions and delusions.

Please understand, I am in no want to argue this with anybody. But I just see delusions of many kind that can easily come about via this, and so, I just caution everyone that's going to this, to be extremely careful, for you may find yourself amidst a spirit of delusion.

Jordan

 2007/3/26 14:26Profile
chadster
Member



Joined: 2006/1/8
Posts: 58


 Re:

Please, Jordan, help me understand. You sense a "clear and direct lack of apostolicity" from them and so you're dismising, judging and writing off the merit of both Lou Engle and "The Call". I read Art Katz's book on Apostolic Foundations and I see Lou Engle aligning with what is apostolic: calling Christians to humble themselves and crying out to God in repentance!

And pray tell, what is "delusional" about crying out to God in repentance???!!!

I'm not wanting to be argumentative either, Jordan and I pray for a spirit of wisdom and revelation to come upon all of us...I'm just incredulous at the dogmatic and harsh posture you are taking toward this.

 2007/3/26 16:10Profile
ChrisJD
Member



Joined: 2006/2/11
Posts: 2895
Philadelphia PA

 Re:

Hi eveyrone. I wanted to share some verses with you all. I share them for us all together and direct them at no one, so please, if you may, take them that way - for us all together.



The first I thought of the other day...




[b][color=660033]...because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.[/color][/b]


And next, this just earlier...


[b][color=660033]And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?[/color][/b]

This, with particular emphasis on [b]behold[/b]. And the phrase came to mind: [i]beams are in the eyes of the [b]beholder[/b][/i]


And then this, just now


[i]Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth.[/i]



Chris


_________________
Christopher Joel Dandrow

 2007/3/26 21:41Profile





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