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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Pre-Trib vs. Post-Trib: Pls Include Scripture

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staff
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 Re:

hi, sorry did it without signing

 2007/3/20 18:49Profile
staff
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 Re:

hi,
Sorry to upset you're consensus party,but I think it that it does make a difference where you stand on pre trib -post trib.It will have some consequences because what you believe always will.I can't see how post trib view can deal with the imminent coming of Christ.If christians said their is no rapture would be a more likely view than a post trib view.
As for my scripture below Jesus telling his disciples about his return:

Luk 17:26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.

Luk 17:27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.

Luk 17:28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;

Luk 17:29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed [them] all.

Luk 17:30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

He highlighted that Judgement came on Noah's Generation the day that Noe entered into the ark
and that Judgement came on Sodom and Gomorah the same day that Lot left Sodom.Judgement could not happen until the Godly were taken out of the situation.
He also highlighted that things were going on as normal,they were eating drinking,marrying etc.
It is obvious that these poeple had not just gone through any tribulation;so this coming could not be just post the great tribulation.Then if it is not post trib when is it?
Rgds Staff

 2007/3/20 18:50Profile
psalm1
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Joined: 2007/1/30
Posts: 1230


 Re:

Hi I see everybody is trying to keep things"light"......Hope it stays that way, Anyway I came across a scripture that is vewwwry intwesting.Luke21;36 "pray that you will be counted worthy to escape the things that are about to come upon the face of the earth" ruhh-row.......David

 2007/3/20 19:11Profile
BenBrockway
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Joined: 2006/5/31
Posts: 427


 Re:

Quote:

staff wrote:
hi,
Sorry to upset you're consensus party,but I think it that it does make a difference where you stand on pre trib -post trib.It will have some consequences because what you believe always will.I can't see how post trib view can deal with the imminent coming of Christ.If christians said their is no rapture would be a more likely view than a post trib view.



Interesting you say this in light of the fact that most of us were saying that we were pre-trib...

I, of course didn't, because I said I was riding the fence when I was younger...however, I would probably lean more towards pre-trib.

I would like to say that it doesn't actually make a difference where you stand. Pre/post trib is not a salvation issue. All it is, is a discussion issue, with the knowledge from both camps that WE MUST BE READY FOR WHENEVER HE COMES. The fact Scripturally remains that we will neither know the day or the hour when he comes, therefore it is not a crucial issue where someone stands in conjunction with pre/post trib. Scripture does not say, you better believe pre/post trib, or else... It says "be ready, because we do not know the day or the hour..." :-D

{small edits made}

 2007/3/20 19:16Profile
Stampe
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Joined: 2007/3/20
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 Re:

Dear Brethren in the Lord,
The reason for the great confusion concerning the timing of the rapture is because we have assumed that the great and terrible day of the Lord and the great tribulation spoken of by Jesus is the same event. It is not!

Joel wrote:
[i][b]"The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come." (JOEL 2:11)[/b][/i]

Jesus said:
[i][b]"Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken..." (MATTHEW 24:29)[/b][/i]

So, according to scripture - the darkening of the sun and the moon, which by the way appears at the breaking of the sixth seal (Rev. 6:12), will occur after the tribulation and before the great and terrible day of the Lord.

If you have something in between separating the two events as we do, they are definitely not the same event.

If we compare Rev. 6 and Matt. 24 closely we will find that they both describe persecution of the saints in great tribulation before the darkening of the sun and the moon!!!

And if we pay attention to what Jesus says, our gathering together unto Him is clearly after the tribulation and not before:

[i][b]And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other" (MATTHEW 24:31)[/b][/i]

About the day of the Lord and our gathering together unto Him, Paul wrote:

[i][b]"Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him... ...Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God" (2 THESSALONIANS 2:2&4)[/b][/i]

Again the scripture is crystal clear: The day of the Lord's wrath and our gathering together (rapture) unto Him, shall not come except there be a falling away first and the Anti-Christ is revealed!!!

It is all very clear, except we mistakingly think that the great tribulation and the Day of the Lord is one and the same... :-o

I will also want to add, that it really does matter where you stand in terms of preparedness for what is to come. Are you prepared to suffer hard persecution and shame for the name of Jesus or are you just prepared to be whisked away up into the sky before anything bad happens?

God bless


Stampe


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Carsten Stampe Jorgensen

 2007/3/20 19:43Profile
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 Re:

Hi Ben,
I agree that the rapture isnt a salvation issue unless of course that we are saved out of this world by the Rapture!
But you're right it isnt a salvation issue but what i'm saying is that one of the views is correct and one is not and always this will have some effect.Knowing the correct view of scripture will always have a positive effect.For instance if I was a pre tribber I could not be caught up easily in replacement theology as I would know about God dealing with Isreal at the time of the end or I would believe in the immenant return of Christ as you say"be ready, because we do not know the day or the hour" which post tribbers can not believe in because he can only come after tribulation in their eyes.
Get ready for what?You could say that post tribbers will be ready for the wrong thing, the tribulation rather than Christ's Return or that pre tribbers are ready for the wrong thing Christ's Return rather than tribulation depending on your view point.O hold on a second doesnt the scripture say be ready... for what?.His return that's what.So it is important what view you believe because pretribbers are getting ready for Christ's Return of which we don't know the day nor the hour and post tribbers are not!
I do agree with you though it is not as important as a salvation issue but more prophecy is written in scripture about the second coming/rapture than the first coming;so it must still be very important,
Keeping it lighthearted,isnt scripture fun,
Rgds Staff

 2007/3/20 19:52Profile
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 Re:

Hi Stampe,

In Regard to below you said,
[u]I will also want to add, that it really does matter where you stand in terms of preparedness for what is to come. Are you prepared to suffer hard persecution and shame for the name of Jesus or are you just prepared to be whisked away up into the sky before anything bad happens?[/u]

Just a question;
Are you ready for tribulation or Christ's Return?

We should always be ready for persecution.There are christians today that have been killed for their faith.The scripture makes it clear that will will suffer many things for his name.After saying that some christians have gone about their life without any physical persecution and have been blessed of god and some christians have suffered physically;as the lord wills.
After saying all this we are to expect persecution but we are to be ready for his return not tribulation.
Getting heavier,
Rgds staff

 2007/3/20 20:05Profile









 Re:

Staff said

Quote:
I could not be caught up easily in replacement theology as I would know about God dealing with Isreal at the time of the end or I would believe in the immenant return of Christ as you say"be ready, because we do not know the day or the hour" which post tribbers can not believe in because he can only come after tribulation in their eyes.



Very, very good point. Thanks for driving this truth home in me.

My purpose in this post, and the scriptures cited, was to point out the danger I see in the pre-trib belief that we'll float into the clouds before the time of troubles - when it seems fairly evident (to me) that saints are tried, and found to be gold rather than chaff, in the fires of tribulation.

I've been reading a lot of material from [url=http://www.persecution.com]Voice of the Martyrs[/url] and listening to Paul Washer - and I'm beginning to believe we're not going to float off into the sky without extreme persecution.

Good points made by all though. I'm learning a lot. God Bless.

 2007/3/20 20:16
psalm1
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Joined: 2007/1/30
Posts: 1230


 Re:

hi stampe,I have a little bit different take on most everything you say.First , are you saying the great and terrible day of the Lord is the same as the great tribulation?I am not sure in your comparison.second,you seem to falsely believe that saints dying in the trib. means nobody has been raptured.The saints in the tribulation are those left behind after the rapture.third, you ascribe matt24;31 to the rapture of the saints living on earth. Nowhere do I see earth,ascention or anyone changed.It says gathered from heaven. Seems to me this is saying that the raptured saints already in heaven are called together to go back to earth to do battle with the antichrist.....David

 2007/3/20 21:06Profile
KingJimmy
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Joined: 2003/5/8
Posts: 4419
Charlotte, NC

 Re: A "Katzian" Perspective on the Rapture

I just thought I'd offer a brief perspective that you will not hear from too many other sources, save those, like myself, who hold to an eschatology of the Art Katz flavor, in regard to the rapture.

Romans 11-12:2 teaches that one of the primary reasons the church exists is to provoke the nation of Israel to jealousy, by a living a sacrificial lifestyle, so as to bring about the salvation of all of Israel. Simply put, if the church is raptured at any point prior to the second coming of Christ at the end of the tribulation period, the church simply cannot fulfill it's purpose in provoking Israel to jealousy.

For if no church exists to provoke Israel to jealousy, then who will provoke Israel to jealousy? How then shall all Israel be saved?


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Jimmy H

 2007/3/20 22:09Profile





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