| Predestination and Election|
I am a Baptist, and yes I am new on here, I wil clarify a few things so you can get to know me and understand where i am coming from, so as to keep you from pre-concieved ideas. I am not kjv only, though it is all i use, and i am not a- dress up to be holy, go to church every service or your a bad person- type of person, thoe i do go every service.
I spent 2 years in bible school, which is alot less than most of whom view this site.
But regarding predestination and election, and who is chosen and who is not.
I am one of those people that you have to pull my teeth out to change my mind, or have ultimate authority. God is our authority and His Word is the verbal Plenary inspired Word.
No Questions I assume.
I used to beleive the all who would come may come. And you'd be surprised, but yes i still do(a novelity thought!)
But I like the way our pastor puts it, rather the opposite of what i was taught, then he provided scriptural proof that backed up what he said. I would never have believed it save he explain it fully using the Authority of our Almighty Savior and King.
God is Omniscient, He knows all things. He knew before the foundation of the world that you would be born and that I would be also.
He knew all things.
Keeping this in mind throughout this little note.
1. God Knows all things.
So we have established that, I think its safe to say that we need not provide verses, of which are found in almost ever book of the old testament, and most of the new as well.
We have all sinned and come short of the Glory of God. So thus from our sin, we all need to be saved, i need salvation as much as the next person.
No one can enter into heaven save for the finished work of our Lord Jesus Christ, and The Grace of God.
The Big Dispute so many falter on, which really isn't a matter of our eternal destination, but rather a matter of our present situation, and doctrinal stance, is that of pre-destination.
Now, It has commonly been stated that all who believe in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ shall be saved, as this verse is of the Word of God, It is 100% true. also we need to confess our sins and turn from them and so on and so forth. what i want to focus on is the word "all"
Any one who has been saved has been chosen. Lets dive right in.
We are chosen.
Now the first thing anyone reading will do if the disagree is turn off their ears and begin to write a retailiation note in their mind.
Hear me out.
This is not going to effect your salvation or the salvation of any others. And it certainly will not excuse you from evangelism.
"but Andrew, if we are chosen, howbeit that we would need to evangelize? If God has Chosen us, would he not also that He lead us to him too?
Lets put it this way, if we stop evangelizing, people stop getting saved and the world would be, in on or more generations, completely lost.
The Point is that will not happen nor can it happen. God would not allow it.
There is an important thing that many people who teach we are chosen, leave out.
The verse is "Acts 13:48 :And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed."
You cannot take the word of God out of context, the english word "ordained" is a derivative of the greek word "tasso" meaning to appoint, determine, ordain or assign, to set.
The word of God here in context is talking about the salvation of the gentiles, that is unless you are a jew, you and me.
Verse 46- 47 says;
Acts 13:46 Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles.
Acts 13:47 For so hath the Lord commanded us, saying, I have set thee to be a light of the Gentiles, that thou shouldest be for salvation unto the ends of the earth.
This is the context for the verse in which we find that we are called.
But that doesnt end the calling.
What does it mean to be called?
How can God call some people, and not others? how can God just decide who dies and who lives?
He doesn't. We do. The ones who have the choice do.
Remember when i reminded you that God is Omniscient?
God knows all things; thats how God Can know that when a mother and father, who are God fearing, give birth to a child, that it would be best for that child to die at birth or in a few years. He chooses this because he knows what choices they will make and those around them. he knows that they will or will not stand a chance in this world. He knew that the parents would possibly grow stronger, or that maybe the parents were disobiedient when having the child, and not to punish the child, but in child birth and in all things, if its not part of the timing of God, then it must be corrected.
This is not to say that the child would not go to heaven. before he or she had a chance to understand the gospel, he would allow no child to go to hell.
Then comes the next question of what about a 15 year old that dies of cancer? not saved?
Remember that God knows the entirity of the length of days of each of us. each choice well make, each prayer that will be made, and each prayer that wont be made. He knew that that child would not ever get saved, you must remember that God is a just God with the interests of not just the saved in mind, but also the lost. He loves the lost just as much as the redeemed. So when he sees that no matter what the choice the teen would make, they would never choose salvation, he spares them the devastaion of committing worse and more deeply punishable sin, he takes their life, sparing them the greater severity of eternal punishment.
He keeps many on earth that wont get saved, for many reasons, one because they may greatly benefit others by thier life, even though they do not get saved.
Keep in mind God does not submit to a time oriented lifestyle, God does not deal in the measurement of time. So for us to comprehend how he can know the future may be difficult.
Now lets focus on one more aspect of the omniscience of God. Prayer?
There are they that think that God wants us to pray so that our prayers are heard.
But stop for a second and think about that. God doesnt just want us to pray because he delights in it. He wants us to pray because it is the tool to change the World.
Look at Elijah, prayed to rain fire down, and it did, prayed that it wouldn't rain for 3 and a half years and it didn't.
If Elijah hadnt prayed, it wouldnt have rained fire, if Elijah Hadnt prayed God wouldn't have answered. God knew that he would pray, so he had already prepared the answer before time. But if God knew that he would not have prayed, then he would not have prepared the Answer before time.
Now lets focus on predestination.
God ordained these gentiles.
He ordained them to eternal life, that means that before God created time, he knew that those certain gentiles, that would have chosen God, God chose.
God does not choose those who will not choose him, rather God chooses to save those that would choose to be saved. Our prayers are vital in the lives of those we want saved. a prayer un spoken is a prayer unanswered, whether its yes or no.
The point is,
We are Chosen, all who are saved are chosen of God and were chosen before the foundations of the world.
| 2007/3/19 16:59||Profile|
| Re: Predestination and Election|
Hello fellow Baptist, a few words to this thought.
God sought us before we ever knew to seek him, he is the one that does the seeking not us. The Lord has said in His scripture that he wants everyone to be saved (yet he has been known to harden at least the heart of Pharoah).
We can get into a debate over predestination for all the wrong reasons, but here is my personal thought on the matter:
God has made himself known to me, not that I was elected, but that he sought me out. He is seeking other people out through me as I witness to others I am planting the seed of the knowledge of Him into their lives.
God is going to judge me for all of the times that I haven't been faithful, He will judge those who had the opportunity to turn to him but refused, he will have judgement for those who never had the opportunity (maybe because someone got lazy). God is the judge, not me. Will God judge some more harshly than others, yes the bible says that.
What is our duty, our duty is that since we have recieved the word to be faithful to spreading it. If we are unfaithful we will be judged according to the fruits born in our lives -if we are faithful His Name will be spread to all peoples, nullifying the question of predestination.
| 2007/3/19 17:51||Profile|
Another brother from a different mother...
How are ya today. I'm not absoulutly sure i understand what your getting at...
I was just placing that thought in there because it blew me away when i realized that the Lord would teach me a doctine different from my roots.
I grew up independent fundemenatal. Not legalistic, rather just excessively conservative.
I'm one of those test everything by fire and if it fails test it again. It was like pulling teeth for the Lord to get me to grasp this doctrine.
Never the less. It is Very Important in my walk with God, and realizing the truth behind his perfection.
| 2007/3/19 21:21||Profile|
Santa Clara, CA
| Re: Predestination and Election|
Welcome to SI. Unsure how familiar you might be with the site, there has been a great deal of discussion in past postings on this as you could likely well imagine. A search through the terms would bring up quite a few ...
Here is something I stumbled on the other day that is one of the best treatments of this whole matter I have ever read;
[url=http://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?viewmode=flat&order=0&topic_id=15678&forum=34&post_id=&refresh=Go]Christian Fools ~ A.W. Pink[/url]
| 2007/3/19 23:37||Profile|
A sister once wrote this...and I have kept it as a summary of her thoughts on this subject...
This analogy is a VERY simple look at Predestination and Election. I did not intend it to be for salvation, regeneration, sanctification, etc. It basically states in my opinion, that on the topic of predestination/election that we were chosen as a whole (the church), yet have the individual will to choose to serve our Lord and Master. Once again the analogy was not to serve as an end all be all for salvation and etc. BTW, desire is not enough. The analogy did cover a living faith, meaning a day to day belief in Jesus Christ, and not just believe but living the Word, not just reading it or knowing it.
Let me explain myself perhaps a little more clearly.
ELECTION--God's choice of those who believe in Christ is an important doctrine to the apostle Paul (Rom 8:29-33, 9:6-26, 11:5,28; Col 3:12; 1Thess 1:4; 2Thess 2:13; Titus 1:1). Election refers to God's choice in Christ of a people in order that they should be holy and blameless in his sight. Paul sees election as expressing God's love as God receives, as His own, all who receive His Son, Jesus. I feel that the doctrine of election involves these following truths: ( I may split up over several posts.)
1. Election is Christocentric ie, election of humans occurs only in union with Jesus Christ. Jesus himself is first of all the elect of God. Concerning Jesus, God states, "Here is my servant whom I have chosen". Christ, as the elect, is the foundation of our election. Only in union with Christ do we become members of the elect. NO ONE is elect apart from union with Christ through faith.
If the analogy were carefully read, you would see that if one does not maintain that union with Christ, he/she is no longer part of the elect and have abandoned ship.
2. Election is "in Him...through His blood" (Eph. 1:7). God purposed before creation to form a people through Christ's redemptive death on the cross. Thus election is grounded in Christ's sacrificial death to save us from our sins(Act 20:28, Rom 3:24-26).
3. Election in Christ is primarily corporate, that is the election of a people. The elect are called "the body of Christ", "My church,a people belonging to God" and the "bride" of Christ. Therefore, election is corporate and embraces individual persons only as they identify and associate themselves with the body of Christ, the true church. This was true already of Israel in the OT.
4. The election to salvation and holiness of the body of Christ is always certain. But the certainty of election for individuals remain conditional on their personal living faith in Jesus Christ and perseverance in union with Him. Paul demonstrates this as follows:
a.) God's eternal purpose for the church is that we should "be holy and blameless in His sight" (Eph 1:4). This refers both to forgiveness of sins, and to the church's sanctification and holiness. God's elect people are being led by the Holy Spirit toward sanctification and holiness (Rom 8:14; Gal 5:16-25). Paul repeatedly emphasizes this paramount purpose of God (Eph 2:10, 3:14-19, 4:1-3,13-24; 5:1-18.)
b.)Fulfillment of this purpose for the corporate church is certain: Christ will "present her to Himself as a radiant church...holy and blameless (Eph 5:27).
c.) Fulfillment of this purpose for individuals in the church is conditional. Christ will present us "holy and blameless in His sight" only if we continue in the faith. Paul states this to us clearly: Christ will "present you holy in His sight without blemish...if you continue in your faith, established and firm, not moved from the hope held out in the gospel" (Col 1:22-23).
5. Election to salvation in Christ is offered to all (John 3:16-17; 1 Tim 2:4-6; Titus 2:11)and becomes actual for particular persons contingent on their repentance and faith as they accept God's gift of salvation in Christ. At the point of faith, the believer is incorporated into Christ's elect body (the church) by the Holy Spirit (1 Col 12:13), thereby becoming one of the elect. Thus, both God and humans have a decision in election.
PREDESTINATION--Predestination means "to decide beforehand" and applies to God's purposes comprehended in election. Election is God's choice "in Christ" of a people (the true church) for Himself. Predestination comprehends what will happen to God's people (all genuine believers in Christ).
1.) God predestines his elect to be : called (Rom 8:30); justified (Rom 3:24; 8:30); glorified (Rom 8:30); conformed to the likeness of His Son (Rom 8:29); holy and blameless (Eph 1:4); adopted as God's children (Eph 1:5); redeemed (Eph 1:7); recipients of an inheritance(Eph 1:14); for the praise of His glory (Eph 1:12; 1Pet 2:9);recipients of the Holy Spirit (Eph 1:13; Gal 3:14) and created to do good works (Eph 2:10).
2.) Predestination, like election, refers to the corporate body of Christ(the true spiritual church), and comprehends individuals only in association with that body through a living faith in Jesus Christ.
Thank you for your time.
Yours in Christ,
end of thought
| 2007/3/20 0:29||Profile|
| Re: election|
To: Ian & Fella' Baptist,
From: another Baptist
When it comes to election Ef. 1 is an outmost important chapter just as Rom 9 is as well. However we forget God the Father's words in the garden of Eden: "the day you will eat from it you will surely DIE". Are we not from Adam all dead in our sins? How can a dead respond to any external stimuli? Is it not God who seeks us ("I have other sheep not of this fold..."), awakens us and then gives us the faith and grace to believe in Christ (Ef. 2:8,9) Speaking to the pharisees, Jesus told them that they cannot believe because they are not His sheep. Observe please that not believing is what makes one a sheep, but rather viceversa: a sheep will believe.
Have you or I given God anything to God so that He would owe us anything? The "truth" proclaimed from pulpits is "Give God your heart... and He will have mercy on you". Really? Really? Could this be the truth or should we have more the attitude of Paul in exclaiming (while looking at ourselves): "O wretched man that I am". God has committed us all to disobedience by giving us the Law, so that it would not be unfair that not all die and go to hell, but rather be it unfair that you and I are elected according to his grace so that there will be no reason to boast of us giving Him something (faith) in order for Him to give us something else (eternal life). Please read Rom. 11:32 thru 36. Once you realize GOD's grace in these verses, you can accompany Paul in exclaiming: "For of Him, and thru Him and to Him are all things, to whom be the glory forever" It echoes so beautifully with the songs of the redeemed ones in Revelation.
Grace to all and praise to God the Father, Son and Holly Spirit
| 2007/3/20 1:48||Profile|
| God has commited us all to disobiedience...|
It is true that we are all disobedient, but God gave us the law not to cause us to sin:
James 1:13 "Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:"
James 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
James 1:15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.
We must be very careful to note that all doctrines that are biblical, and not perverted by man NEVER pervert the character or holiness of God.
The passages quoted above clearly explain our sin. now sin is not limited to these passages, however, all sin is derieved from pride, selfishness, self-exaltation. It is very clear that temptation appeals to our hearts and our minds. Temptation therefore can be defined as the the presentation before man to do that which is evil and unruly, yet oft times cloaked with a good or righteous-seeming covering.
The fact is God gave us the law, not that we would disobey him, but so that we would obey him. Number one the law has been fulfilled through Christ, therefore, what made a man justified in the old testament, which was the obedience to the law, temporal, and all to often seemingly impossible, has been replaced by what justifies a beliver now, which is by grace, putting our faith in christ.
This does not expempt us from doing the statutes of the law. James says: " therefore, faith without works, is dead, being alone."
He also says
Be ye not hearers of the word only but doers also."
All scripture, keyword All scriture is given by inspiration, and is profitable for doctrine for reproof correction and instruction in righteousness, that the man of god may be complete thoroughly furnnished, unto all good works."
back to predestination
When we read that as many "gentiles" that were ordained believed, it says what it says, you cannot take the authority of scripture out of parts of the word that make it seem more sensible, and consider the word of God trustworthy.
Gods word is truth, the Whole word, every, last word, every jot, every tiddle, each name, each city, was placed there for a purpose, by writers as they were moved by the Holy spirit.
You Cannot say that the whole word as is, is not accurate, if you believe that all scripture is given by inspiration, then you also should believe that God is capable of preserving his Word, "i will preserve my word" and His "word will stand for ever"
As many as were ordained, believed.
There is a difference between the elect and the predestined,
God knew before time that we would choose him, and He chose us before time.
God does not want zombies, or he wouldn't have given us a free will.
He would never force someone to believe, this is where the omniscience of God comes in.
He knew that we would choose him, therefore he chose us.
Ill return to discuss somemore, this is a great discussion folks, remember to stay in the word.
| 2007/3/23 11:48||Profile|
| Re: God has commited us all to disobiedience...|
Can I ask a question on this issue? Why would God predestine some people to never become Christians and then send them to hell when they never had a chance?
I'm not looking to debate, I'm just wondering. :-(
| 2007/3/23 15:48||Profile|
Why would God predestine some people to never become Christians and then send them to hell when they never had a chance?
God doesn't predestine anyone to hell. All men deserve hell by their wickedness. It is God's love and mercy that He redeems any of us.
A good question to ask is why did God even predestine any of us to begin with?
| 2007/3/23 16:18||Profile|